Tuned In

Geek Fight! Lost, Thrones Camps Square Off Over GRRM's Dis of Finale

In yesterday’s New Yorker, Laura Miller (a former colleague of mine from Salon) published an excellent profile of George R. R. Martin—author of the novels on which HBO’s Game of Thrones is based—which focused on the increased demands by fans on creators in an era of ever-more online kibitzing and access. GRRM, for years, has been beset by a splinter group of fans who have groused about the increasing time he takes between books.

Ironically, Martin took aim at another pop-culture work that has been the subject of endless fan analysis, pressure and complaint: Lost. Count GRRM among the fans who hated the finale. The full piece is not online, but here’s the relevant excerpt: “We watched it every week trying to figure it out, and as it got deeper and deeper I kept saying, ‘They better have something good in mind for the end. This end better pay off here.’ And then I felt so cheated when we got to the conclusion.” With his own series, A Song of Ice and Fire, he now feels under pressure not to “fuck it up” and “do a Lost.”

Ouch. Lost writer-producer Damon Lindelof—the show’s chief creative force and favorite punching bag of finale-haters—saw the comment and took to his Twitter feed. Lindelof is also an unabashed fan of Martin and his books, so the criticism had to come as a particular punch in the gut: “George RR Martin is terrified of ‘pulling a LOST’ by ending Game of Thrones shittily,” he wrote. “In related news, my therapist just hit the jackpot.”

Lindelof then reeled off a series of—I think, I hope—tongue-in-cheek tweets feeding the “feud,” such as, “Winter IS coming, bitch,” likening Martin’s fulsome beard to Lost character Mr. Friendly’s (a pretty apt comparison) and tweaking Martin for his tardiness in meeting deadlines: “I’ve just been informed George is working on his feud response. I’ll have it in FIVE YEARS!” (Actually, I’m pretty sure Martin would tie his response to the foot of a raven and let it fly from his custom-built tower in Santa Fe.) But Lindelof also tweeted, in a more straightfaced tone, “I don’t take issue with his opinion, I take issue with the fact that he coined ‘Pulling a LOST’ as empirically ‘fucking up the ending.’”

I’m not surprised by Martin’s view of Lost, since it came up in my own interview with him in Santa Fe a couple weeks ago (I’ll be posting it at more length later). And he didn’t mince words:

Did you watch Lost?

Martin: I did watch Lost. I watched Lost in its entire run and I was fascinated, but you know, even as early as the second season and certainly the third season, I started saying, how the hell are they going to pull all of this together? If they pull all of this together, it’s going to be the greatest show in the history of television, man. They better know how to pull all of this together! And then when I reached the end and they hadn’t pulled it altogether, in fact, they left a big turd on my doorstep? I was pretty upset, you know.

Having been a veteran of not only writing for but watching Twilight Zone [Martin wrote for a CBS remake in the 1980s] it was about the second episode of Lost, I said, “Oh, they’re all dead.” They’re all dead. That’s what it would be in a half-hour Rod Sterling Twilight Zone, in 1958. And they took what? How many seasons to get to the point where they were all dead?

120 some episodes?

Yeah. Rod would have gotten that in about minute 20. Where everybody would have realized that they were all fucking dead. In fact, he did that in about six “Twilight Zones.”

Now, I love A Song of Ice and Fire. And I loved Lost—even loved, if with qualifications, the finale. So there’s an uncomfortable element here for me of watching a family fight. Mommy! Daddy! Stop it!

I don’t begrudge Martin his disappointment, though. (I don’t think it was as simple as “They were all dead,” since everything that happened on the Island was real—but that’s a topic for another day.) And I’ve done enough interviews with TV people loath to say anything about any other TV show that it was refreshing to hear GRRM talk about it, simply and unvarnished, like a fan. [Update: Interesting twist: the folks at ASOIAF fansite Westeros.org pointed me to a GRRM blog post from exactly two years ago; evidently he didn't like Battlestar Galactica's finale either, and was worried about a "they're all dead" Lost twist even then. Foreshadowing!]

But if nothing else, it was interesting to hear this coming out of GRRM’s mouth, since he’s been on the receiving end of pretty much exactly the same flak as Lost: that he’s making it up as he goes along (he says he’s not), that he’s taking so long because he doesn’t know where the story is going, that he will let us fans all down in the end. (“How is he going to pull all of this together?”—I recall thinking that somewhere around the third or fourth Dorne or Iron Islands chapter in A Feast for Crows.) This is not to say that he’s a hypocrite; on the contrary, if anyone out there has the right to take this kind of swipe, it’s him, even if I feel bad for Lindelof hearing it from an icon.

More than anything, it’s a reminder that this kind of intensity of reaction—of feeling not just let down, but cheated, betrayed, robbed—can perversely only come from deep fandom. People don’t react like this to works that they never loved. (Well, maybe some do, but I can’t begin to understand their psychology.) They react this way to shows or stories that grab them on a gut level and completely captivate them. It’s a lover’s betrayal. And creators like Martin (or, I suspect, Lindelof) are not immune to it either. They are good at what they do because they are geeks themselves—which I mean in the best way, that is, intense and obsessive fans.

But it’s not just them; multiply their voices by millions. What I have to wonder is whether that kind of constant chatter—amplified by Twitter (which Lindelof uses) and blogs (GRRM has one)—creates a new kind of anxiety of influence that authors would be better off without. Do I want Martin worrying (more than he already would) about the number of fans with various expectations they want met? Do I want him worrying about “pulling a Lost,” or would we be better off if he wrote a story to satisfy his inner voice and let the crits fall where they may? And, I have to wonder, does that fear of “making a mistake,” as Martin says in that New Yorker profile, contribute, even in some indirect way, to those books taking so long to produce?

I can’t say. Maybe they provide a kind of discipline, a necessary corrective to hubris. Either way, if GRRM does manage to pull it off and wrap up the teeming threads of ASOIAF on time and in a satisfactory way, maybe he’ll have the anxiety of influence of Lost—and Lindelof himself—to thank.

Related Topics: game of thrones, Lost, Uncategorized
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  • profdante

    Ha! I’m a big fan of both of these pop culture artifacts, so it’s really interesting to see this kind of back and forth — although I’d have a tad more sympathy toward GRRM if he, you know, had the correct interpretation of what actually happened in LOST. From everything I’ve read about Game of Thrones, I’ve gathered that the story he was planning to tell vastly outgrew his original ambitions, leading to many delays and rewrites. So, if you’ll allow me a little armchair psychology, I suspect that we are seeing some self-directed anxiety here.

    I will be amused, though, if “pulling a Lost” becomes part of our vernacular:

    “Boy, after that great meal the dessert was lousy! The pastry chef really pulled a Lost with that one.”

  • http://twitter.com/poniewozik James Poniewozik

    The irony is, GoT has been the show I’ve cited as having the potential to be a “next LOST” for a couple of years–with all the baggage that comes with that. And he’s totally entitled to his opinion–I don’t really want to rebut him here. Plus as I said, the “feud” is pretty low-stakes, such as it is.

    It’s just funny the parallels: vast story, immersive serial, layers added upon layers, fans grousing about whether he can tie up all the loose ends–yeah, you would think after these comments, we should hope he sticks the landing.

    But like I said, I love Mommy and I love Daddy, even though they fight sometimes.

  • doubleang

    I have wondered the same thing about your comments in the second to last paragraph.

    I am going to hope that its a positive thing and keeps him from pulling a George Lucas. Criticism is not a bad thing.

  • tyrantking

    How did Lindelof not know what “pulling a Lost” meant? Did he think it was a flattering statement? Anyway here is a partial list of recent things that I believe also “pulled a Lost”:

    Harry Potter
    BSG
    Garth Nix’s Keys to the Kingdom

    Things that didn’t pull a Lost:

    Hunger Games

  • doubleang

    ??? Just the opposite; he does know what it meant, and he took umbrage to it…

  • tyrantking

    I know. However, I like to think he’s been wandering around for months now hearing people say that this or that has pulled a Lost and thinking that it was a compliment.

  • http://noizangel.wordpress.com noizangel

    Doesn’t GRRM sound a little like the Grumpy Old Man from SNL when he starts talking Rod Serling and how much better he wrote TV in the 80′s? “In MY day, we would have know they were dead at minute 20. And we LIKED it! We LOVED it!”

    I’m a big fan of LOST, BSG, and ASoIaF- the last long before it was going to come to screen – and I’m a little surprised that a dude who lives in a big ol’ glass house would be so willing to throw stones. Though some are willing to give him leeway about the story sprawling far beyond his initial conception, I’d think a good writer would be able to rein that urge in. I also see very little quarter given to the writers of LOST, BSG or any similar product for something like that happening.

    Also, as someone who worked in television and is a writer, Martin should know it’s both disingenous and a disservice to both LOST and BSG to biol them down to an ending that he didn’t like. There’s seasons of groundbreaking TV there, and he tosses it out – like so many people that now have a respected writer to echo their opinion.

    I get your point about his candor, James – it’s refreshing in a sense, but I don’t think anyone was unaware that Martin, with his endless battles with deadlines, just MIGHT be a little nervous about pulling together all the threads of his story well within the confines of HBO’s production schedule. Hell, I’d be nervous. I just don’t get why he’d need to beat on someone else’s – an admitted fan’s! – work in order to express his concern.

    Maybe he’s gotten to the age where he says what he wants, maybe he’s always been like that. But it wasn’t cool. Hopefully he learns lessons from the disappointments he’s had and is able to end the series as perfectly as he’d like.

  • http://noizangel.wordpress.com noizangel

    Er. Boil them down. :P

  • http://wellmetgmc.wordpress.com K9vin

    Lost was not that groundbreaking. I knew the first episode what the end would be. By season 2 it was emphatically shown. People on a crashed plane on a show called Lost (lost souls in purgatory) who all switched roles before they got on the plane (the good did something bad, the bad did something good) to make their soul not guaranteed to go up or down. Hello?

    The groundbreaking part would have been to embrace it and not try to think you can outmaneuver the audience away with cheap and obvious red herrings.

    It would have been much better if they just identified that was where they were but still play out their own unknowing attempts at ‘redemption’.

    I agree with GRRM and find it refreshing that he has the guts to speak his mind versus the ‘coach-speak’ of any celebrity not considered off his rocker. I am tired of the conception that no one can say that they thought something else was not up to snuff from athletes to actors to writers. False respect IMHO is worse than negativity.

  • http://elbeal.wordpress.com elbeal

    SPOILERS: I don’t know how to break this to you but they were not dead in season 1 or season 2 (or 3, or 4, or 5). They survived the plane crash. Even in Season 6 the only time we saw dead people was in the flashes of events off island (flash limbos?). What happened happened. Jack doesn’t die until the end of the last episode. Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Ben, etc. die sometime later.

    I don’t know why this point seems so hard for some people to grasp.

  • http://godlovesjacob.wordpress.com bretnsid

    I made an account on this site just to comment on this article. I am a huge fan of Lost. I loved the finale and the entire series. Lost is far and away the best TV show I have ever watched, and I can’t imagine any show even coming close to it anytime soon. I understand that some people did not like the Lost finale and that some even hated it. I am fine with that because everyone is entitled to their opinion.

    However, George Martin, if you are basing your criticism of Lost on the idea that you find out in the finale “they are all dead”, your opinion is not valid. I understand being confused after the first viewing of the Lost finale, but George Martin claims to have been a huge fan of the show – how could he NOT at least try to understand what the finale ACTUALLY reveals. It’s blatantly stated by Christian “Yeah, you’re real. I’m real. Everything that’s ever happened to you is real. All those people out there, they’re all real.” Seriously, this guy says he was a loyal viewer of the show but can’t take put forth the effort of thinking about or re-watching the finale to at least understand what happened? Lost always left us confused (in a good way), and even the finale does that in some ways – but they clearly stated in the show that everything that happened on the island (and after they left) HAPPENED and was REAL. They were not all dead the whole time.

    Now, if he wants to criticize the Lost finale for not tying up loose ends – that’s his opinion. I, for one, actually think there aren’t as many loose ends as people believe after you put things together – although there still are some loose ends, sure – then at least I can understand his opinion. But harping on the “they’re all dead” point just makes him sound like some of those people who only watched the first season of Lost and then came back for the SERIES FINALE and expected to understand what the whole show was about – and so they look for one big answer and because the idea of afterlife is addressed in the finale, they think “they were dead the whole time”.

    George Martin – watch the Lost series finale again, and pay attention to what Christian tells Jack at the end and take the time and effort to actually understand it. Then come back and criticize the finale if you still want to, so you can at least make a valid criticism.

  • http://godlovesjacob.wordpress.com bretnsid

    To people like you – WATCH THE FINALE AGAIN. Listen to what Christian tells Jack at the end. Did you even watch the entire series?

  • http://godlovesjacob.wordpress.com bretnsid

    (That reply was to K9vin)

  • Tom Shaw

    I love Mommy and Daddy too, but if we are being honest, didn’t Martin pull a Lost already… with a near aimless midsection that brings in new characters by the boatfull while ignoring old ones (Bran should be on a milk carton by now)?

  • http://twitter.com/poniewozik James Poniewozik

    To be fair to GRRM: I don’t think he meant that he believed the characters were dead *all along.* Rather, it sounded to me like he felt any twist of having characters turn out to be dead was predictable, so he hated that the finale ended on that note. (That said, I can’t say for sure; I didn’t follow up on it, since I was there to talk to him about GoT, not rebut his take on LOST.)

    As I said, personally I don’t think the finale was the kind of predictable twist he saw it as–as opposed to if it simply turned out that the Island were Purgatory–but he’s entitled to his opinion.

  • http://dreamlife613.wordpress.com The Dreamlife

    I love all 3: Lost and BSG are among my all-time favorite TV series. While I wasn’t thrilled with season 6, the final episode of Lost was a perfect way to end such a wonderful series. BSG changed my perception of scifi/space dramas. While I didn’t like everything about the ending, it didn’t ruin the show for me. ASOIAF is currently my all-time favorite book series. I’d rather not read about this kind of quarrel. I think GRRM was out of line to talk that way about Lost, but as you say, it reflects how vested he was in the series and how let down he felt by the ending. He is only human as we sometimes forget.

  • http://www.simonvinkenoog.nl/beeld/Yogi%20-%20Annelies%20Rigter.jpg yogi

    Well if we’re being honest, it does take awhile for dragons to grow up. ;)

  • waxwendy

    I think you’ve got that backwards. My initial reaction to the LOST finale was, “Oh my god, did we just get STARBUCKED??”

  • rosseau

    Your mention of the anxiety of influence. That’s a great idea: Harold Bloom on sci-fi/fantasy. “Lost’s John Locke as the Byronic man, but a clearly more capable version of Walter Bishop, who pre-meltdown, was more committed, yet now is finally in full guilt, much like Albus Dumbledore, but not as guilty as Manfred.” Or, maybe not such a good idea.

  • chriskw

    @James

    It’s too bad you didn’t get this posted earlier in the day. I knew it was coming and really wanted to share my input. But I had to go a class. Anyways, most of what I wanted to say has been said.

    I always check in on his blog every now and then to see updated on A Dance with Dragons. So over the years I have come across some obnoxious posts by Martin.

    The only think I can add is that GRRM also dissed the Star Trek movie (LIndelof was a producer, he’s writing the sequel) back in 2009. I know it’s strange that I remember it. The reason I do is because he said the script sucked from start to finish. My thought was, “Well, that’s what happens when people honor deadlines.”

    He also complains a lot about other things. Like how airports and airlines make his life horrible. Oh yeah, they’re to blame for difficult travel. Or maybe it’s because he could lose a few pounds. Seriously, I read the EW interview where he complains about how difficult is was being an extra in the pilot.

    One last thing: People don’t remember stories that don’t have endings. So maybe Martin should make sure that his series has one before he opens his mouth next time.

  • http://noizangel.wordpress.com noizangel

    Bran? Dude, what about Rickon? I mean, I’ll love it when he returns as a wilding trained ninja with a near-feral Summer at his side, but that kid has not been breathed of since book two.

  • chriskw

    http://grrm.livejournal.com/87221.html

    http://grrm.livejournal.com/87468.html

    Here are the links to his thoughts on Star Trek. I am not saying he doesn’t have a right to his opinion. But why be a dick about it all the time? I think he doesn’t have any respect for screenwriters. I guess it’s a good thing that David Benioff and D.W. Weiss have also written novels.

  • http://theyar.wordpress.com theyar

    He’s right about the finale of Lost. Sure, they twisted it up and made it convoluted and nonsensical so they could maintain plausible deniability on the obvious “they’re all dead” scenario… but to anyone with a keen unbiased eye, it’s obvious that “they’re all dead” was all it really was. You’re desperately fooling yourself if you think you are clued into any sort of deeper explanation than that.

  • http://theyar.wordpress.com theyar

    P.S. K9vin nailed it.

  • http://godlovesjacob.wordpress.com bretnsid

    I disagree, James. He says it took them 120 hours to get to the idea that “this was purgatory”. That is an absurd statement to make. This idea of afterlife had NOTHING to do with the first 5 seasons of the show. Literally – nothing. It’s not mentioned. It’s not shown. Yet he claims they wasted all that time because “everyone is dead anyway”. If he wants to say they wasted 18 and a half hours (the duration of season 6) with the flash-sideways, then that’s fine because that was the extent of the afterlife that we were shown. I would absolutely respect his opinion if he said that….but that’s not what he said.

    And he said he kept thinking since the second episode of the series that “they’re all dead”. So when he was watching, starting with Season 1, he thought everything that he was being shown was after they had died. Again, this idea of the afterlife did not even enter the equation until Season 6 – and that was just one half of the season. The other half of Season 6 was everything that DID happen. Lost spent about 112 hours or so (Seasons 1-5) of showing the viewer everything that did happen. Then Lost spends about half of the 18 hours of Season 6 showing you stuff that happens in “purgatory”. They did not take 120 hours to say they are all dead. That is not only false, but not even CLOSE to being true. Everyone dies sometime, and the Lost writers just showed us what happened when they did. That’s all. To say that nothing else mattered other than the fact that they all eventually died is absolutely ridiculous. I really do not think he understood the ending, because if he did then those comments he made are utterly absurd.

    And if he thinks the “Sideways” world was predictable (even if that was all he meant), then he speaks only for himself. The entire idea of the last season was that the Losties created this world because they detonated the bomb. I watched Totally Lost every week, and I’ve seen many people’s thoughts on the Sideways world and I never saw anyone mention this Sideways world being an afterlife. People always referred to it as being something like an alternate universe or something along those lines. They showed this Sideways universe right after they showed the bomb going off, which is what was so brilliant. The bomb didn’t send everyone back to Flight 815 into this other world, but the way they arranged the order in which they showed those things, that’s what everyone was led to believe. Lost showed us “when” you show the audience something is just as important as “what” you show them. Of course, I still disagree that this is what George was even referring to.

  • olivececile

    Now I don’t know what anyone means. Do you mean you think they died in the crash and everything we saw was purgatory? They didn’t. If you mean that The inclusion of an afterlife scenario in season 6 affected how you view the whole show in a negative way, I of course grant you your opinion. But they were alive, and experienced everything we saw in their real lives (except the flash sideways).

  • http://noizangel.wordpress.com noizangel

    This is where I get the Grumpy Old Man thing from. It’s like – if it was ‘better’ in HIS day, it clearly sucks now.

    Hope he sticks that landing, because those ASOIAF fans are vicious and mean. :(

  • http://treenahein.wordpress.com Stella

    Thanks for all the great comments (except the dumb ones, hahaha) and for your pithy thoughts as always James.
    I agree the groundwork was not laid well in season 5 of LOST and the introduction of new entities/characters (and a whole lot more) in Season 6 was just terrible.
    Season 6 should have been a ‘game of thrones’ between Ben Linus and Charles Whitmore, with them trying to outsmart/outlast each other, with both their daughters on the line, with island eventually intervening to choose one of them to be ‘king’ which of course should be Ben as Charles just wanted the island’s scientific powers.
    Having Claire disappear, Alex shot, Sayid become a zombie, the flash-sideways be some sort of waiting room in limbo….I could go on and on but it was just so silly.

    BSG…the villian Cavil made it clear he wanted to be a better machine, not a human replica. So that should have been his continued motivation. He could have held the destruction of humanity over the heads of the final five, having them then agree to go with him and create a better ‘body’ for him in return for him leaving humanity alone forever. THAT should have been a big part of the ending. Instead the guy’s goal was lost in the shuffle and he shot himself ??!??? Huh???

    Game of Thrones has been excellent so far. We cannot judge until the game is over.

  • jeia56

    Nothing like some good ol’ fashioned fanboy bickering to drive up the hits, eh James? :)

  • scottyslc

    Sounds like the producers of HBO’s adaptation of Game of Thrones know much more than we do and aren’t concerned. They’ve read the first 600 pages of A Dance With Dragons and also know how the entire series will end and are already thinking about the finale:

    “We’ve talked through what the final episode, the final season will be.” Executive producer David Benioff adds: “We can’t wait to write that episode. Of the many different fears we have about the show, long-term momentum is not one of them. We’re very confident.”

    Link here: http://www.tvguide.com/News/Game-Thrones-Lost-1031645.aspx?rss=breakingnews

  • http://sdsouthard.wordpress.com Scott D. Southard

    A good story should be about the journey, not the ending.

    And that is why BSG and Lost (and even Martin’s work; let’s include Potter too) are successes.

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