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Stewart on Maddow on Stewart on the News

Last night, Rachel Maddow devoted her MSNBC program to an interview with Jon Stewart about the message of his Rally to Restore Sanity, and its critique of the news media, especially—this being a cable news show—cable news. (See the whole thing here.)

I don’t want to oversimplify the interview, which got into some interesting points about the gestalt that the 24-hour flow of a news channel creates. (Stewart’s metaphor was that whereas individual shows like Maddow’s are “the weather,” he and The Daily Show are concerned about “the climate”—i.e., the overall worldview that the totality of the programming conveys.) And I thought Maddow generally ran the interview like a conversation rather than a defensive interrogation.

But I have to say, I was disappointed that so much of Maddow’s questioning—like the earlier complaints from Keith Olbermann and Bill Maher—boiled down to: “But the other guys are worse, right? Say that they’re worse than we are.”

I know that The Daily Show and The Colbert Report are pretty widely watched by people in my line of work, so I’ve been frankly flabbergasted that so many of the media people reacting to the rally seem somehow not to have noticed that they are, more than anything, media-criticism shows. What I shouldn’t have been surprised about is that people have focused less on Stewart’s critique of the news media than on demanding a precise apportionment of blame—preferably, of course, assigning a bigger share of it to their rivals.

It just all becomes like a Balkan war with people like this. Suggest that anyone on their own side might be guilty of overdoing things, and the first response is: But they started it! And they have more power! And they do it more! And whatever we did was justified retaliation for the massacre against our people by their side in the 13th century!

I’m not saying that people like Maher, or Olbermann, or Maddow, are wrong to say that their opponents are more uncivil than their side, or less justified in their incivility, or whatever. I am asking: why is that the most important issue? It seems to me simply a way to avoid responsibility—to say, We’ll disarm after they disarm first.  (The right, on the other hand, has a more uncomplicated way of dispensing with Stewart’s critique—it figures he plays for the other team and can be disregarded entirely, whereas there seems to be a feeling of betrayal on the left that he wouldn’t be more of a team player.)

Maybe it’s just me, but I didn’t see an “equivalency” of any kind being drawn in the montage at the end of the rally. The statement I saw was that this kind of rhetorical excess is wrong, period, and that it comes from various sides—not that it comes equally from every side.

(Nor, by the way, do I think it was a critique only of cable news: Stewart and Colbert were critiquing a tendency in the media generally, for which, obviously, cable news clips make the most telegenic evidence for an event held on TV. Stewart does make an interesting point in the interview, though, about the difference between the Internet, where the audience seeks out the links it wants to follow, and a newscast, which is presented linearly.)

Why didn’t Stewart and Colbert make a point of saying who was worse? I don’t know, but I suspect—seeing this as a media critic—they knew well that once you bring that kind of scorekeeping into the discussion, that scorekeeping becomes the entire discussion. (I think it’s pretty plain that Stewart sees Fox as the prime mover in cable’s volume war, but I can also see why he talked in circles to avoid this becoming a bash-Fox session on MSNBC’s air.)  As it is, it’s been the main focus of the political media after the rally, and it makes sense: this side vs. that is the frame through which they see everything, and focusing on how the other guy is worse is the easiest way to avoid responsibility for your own actions.

Which means that the takeaway from an event like the rally is that people can agree that it’s a reasonable critique. Of that guy, over there.

Related Topics: Jon Stewart, rachel maddow, rally to restore sanity, News Media
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  • The Hoobie

    It didn’t seem like Stewart used the “clown nose on” defense in the interview, either. (I suppose it could be argued that he did that a little when he was trying to delineate the differences between what she does and what he does, but I thought he was making valid points.) You don’t sit down for an hour for a thoughtful, engaged conversation if you’re hiding behind “I’m just a comedian.”

  • margarettoigo

    It WAS as if Rachel Maddow was trying to get Jon Stewart to say that the “other guys” — meaning FOX — are worse than MSNBC.

    Both ladle on the hype and overreact to just about everything, and have their own socio-political narratives into which they must fit current events.

    But MSNBC seems more fact-based and usually avoids quote mining. And its commentators will correct themselves and apologize when they misquote someone or get facts wrong.

    Meanwhile, FOX rather blatantly — and frequently — ignores or distorts facts and quotes people out of context, with nary an apology, or even acknowledgement, for its errors, in sight.

  • http://demoncrat.wordpress.com demoncrat

    First, I enjoy Stewart’s show tremendously. My affection for him as an entertainer aside, he came off as a bit naive (and or evasive) on Maddow. This naiveté about the way journalism is supposed to work in an ideal world is quaint but not very realistic.

    We live in an age of low information voting and civic participation (the fact is, we always have). This is through no fault of our own…even for committed news consumers the “opportunity cost” for remaining adequately informed on all the issues and political actors is far too high. Because of this phenomenon, we all (in differing degrees) use heuristics to sort out our positions on the vast arc of political and social thought. Stewart’s clarion call for civility in journalism misunderstands the reason why we tune in to cable news and, dare i say it, even the Daily Show.

    Consuming news is a bit like eating the recommended amount of vegetables, we know we ought to be doing it but can’t it taste better? Can we be blamed for a little cheese sauce on the broccoli?

    Fox, MSnbc, and the like, understand this dynamic and they program for it. Jon Stewart, whether he is comfortable with it, or intends it, is a beneficiary of this very behavior. It explains why so many in his demographic claim that the Daily Show is their source for news. It’s because the news filtered through satire is how they find news palatable at all. The entertainment value added is what makes his audience willing to “eat their veggies” The fact that they get news while being entertained also lowers their opportunity costs. He can wish it otherwise all he wants but his idealism is futile and not very realistic.

    Our lives are too busy and complex for this dynamic to change anytime soon. There’s only so many hours in a day for work, family, rest and personal endeavor and unless you consume news as part of your occupation (I’m looking at you Jon) then you won’t be ceding any of that time to more responsible news consumption anytime soon.

    I wonder if he realizes that Fox’s and MSnbc’s viewers are very similar to his own. That many of them wouldn’t consume news at all if they didn’t get it from the source that confirms their world-view. His call for a change in tone doesn’t factor in all of those who wouldn’t be paying attention at all if it weren’t for the narratives they seek from their preferred cable outlet.

    The idea that he wasn’t trying to hide behind the “I’m a comedian” curtain last night doesn’t track. He showed up to defend his somewhat controversial claims. Whether he states it directly or not that’s the intrinsic purpose of his being there i.e. “I can use derision and humor and it isn’t counterproductive to society because I’m a comedian but you can’t because you are ostensibly journalists.” Well, I’m sorry Jon but that’s not how it works. You claimed in the interview that history supports the legitimacy of your role but the truth is that the history of journalism supports the current roles of Fox and MSnbc.

    Do I think Fox is irresponsible? Absolutely, but not because of their tone but rather for their veracity…and no Jon the veracity of claims is not all relative. We live in a world where NPR is considered left leaning because by reporting facts they track left of Fox and the rest of A.M. Radio.

    Jon may want to deny (or regret) his own measurably real relevance as an opinion shaper just because the intent is satire. I’m sorry Jon, but when you rob a bank with a squirt gun…it’s still bank robbery. You don’t get to choose whether you are shaping the national narrative based on intent and you certainly don’t get to opt out of this process just because your intent is primarily comedic.

  • beckgrrl

    “Jon may want to deny (or regret) his own measurably real relevance as an opinion shaper just because the intent is satire. I’m sorry Jon, but when you rob a bank with a squirt gun…it’s still bank robbery. You don’t get to choose whether you are shaping the national narrative based on intent and you certainly don’t get to opt out of this process just because your intent is primarily comedic.”

    Sorry, demoncrat, but I disagree wholeheartedly with this. As a satirist, Jon gets to work outside the parameters of “journalism,” whether he’s an opinion-shaper or not. I think it’s true—and he’s acknowledged this—that there’s a degree of unfairness to the fact that he’s not required to have a dog in this fight. Officially, he’s most effective straddling above it, regardless of how he might personally align himself.

    What relevance he has in shaping viewer opinion is strictly tangential to his role. All he’s required to do is be funny. What I’ve always found amazing about Stewart is that he’s funny and compassionate at the same time, which is pretty rare—and he’s found a colleague and alter ego in Stephen Colbert. What are the odds?

  • http://thinkpoint.wordpress.com/ Wisdom for life

    Keith and Rachel convey an unfortunate cynical and condescending tone in everything they say. They both seem to have some sort of anger or resentment issues. I recommend counseling to help them detox off their hostilities. Their tone must hurt their ratings.

  • ophelia24

    The link/post below, I think, really gets at “why the criticism is important.” Fundamentally, one side in this discussion wants to keep people like Maddow and myself from marrying, from serving in the military, from adopting children, and, if they had their way, from being *herself.* The other side might do bad things. But to ever imply that the problem of rhetoric excess is evenly split is to imply that the left deprives LGBT [and others] of their rights and seeks to dehumanize them. They’re not great, but I’m not going to be called a “deviant” or a perverse influence upon children on MSNBC.

    As the post below notes, Jon Stewart can make a false equivalency because he’s not being directly attacked by one side simply for being who he is [Rick Sanchez aside]. Maddow, myself, and millions of others are. And any efforts to mitigate that crucial difference, in my mind, let many aspects of the right off the hook.

    http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/11/01/thirteen-ways-of-looking-at-a-rally/

    -Juliet

  • michaelfury
  • grape_crush

    I think it’s pretty plain that Stewart sees Fox as the prime mover in cable’s volume war.

    I think that’s evident because of his choice of venue for doing this interview. Maddow’s show isn’t neutral like Switzerland, but she’s not engaged in the cable news equivalent of Shock and Awe.

  • schubash

    Just a quick note to say that I attended the rally and I watched the full uncut interview, and I think James Poniewozik got it exactly right. People on the left are furious with Jon for not assigning more blame to Fox. The thing is, he does, but it wasn’t the larger point that he’s making. People are so hung up on aportioning blame that they miss the big picture, which gets right back to what Jon was talking about.

    Jon never made a false equivalency. Only those commenting on him did. Let’s get past that, and I agree with Jon – I’m all for more news that’s looking for issues and clashes in the world that aren’t always red -vs- blue.

  • ericnwinter

    James, are you on drugs?

  • gnatalby

    “That’s not the seminal thrust of what we were saying.”

    Seminal Thrust? Um gross.

  • olivececile

    What I wonder about the criticisms that Jon should have more clearly placed the blame on Fox and right-wing pundits is: who would be the intended audience for that? Liberals who already agree? Pundits who are making money doing what Jon is talking about? The right-wing individuals who see just another liberal calling them dumb and ill-informed? He’s talking about the problem in a way that isn’t meant to alienate regular people who might be open to what he’s saying, even if they don’t necessarily agree with his politics.

  • glkanter

    I understand the decision not to demonize one side. At the rally. But not beyond.

    But I noticed that only Olbermann and Shultz represented the one side in that video. And I know Olbermann is fact based. I haven’t watched Shultz, but the network he appears on seems like a legit news channel. All those guys and gals on the other side? Not so much.

    Lets be honest, Fox News is a 24/7 Republican/Conservative/Tea Party advocacy/PR machine. They do things that real news organizations don’t do, and they don’t do the things you expect a news organization to do. There *is* no equivalent to that on the other side.

  • akismet-87736f9fb3f4dacba3664a30aefe1d5a

    Superb analysis demoncrat. Spot on.

    If we had more time to get the news before the Daily Show, as Jon does, his perception would more accurately speak for the rest of us.

    But because often times the Daily show becomes our only source for particular stories, (if not all the news!), he and the show have much more impact than portrayed.

    **Sidenote:
    I thought they both did a superb job of having an “Adult Conversation,” despite their conflicting views.

    Some Sanity!

  • son0fhobs

    Wisdom for lif…
    You started off with a good thought, albeit I disagree, but you digressed into the hyperbolic “insanity” of the 24/7 media. You effectively dismissed your own comments with such judgments and far from aided to the conversation.
    PS You also rendered your username a bit ironic. :-/

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