Tuned In

Lostwatch: Zombie Island

ABC

SPOILER ALERT: Before you read this post, take a quick taxi ride and watch last night’s Lost.

Went to bed immediately after Lost last night, because I’m fighting a cold—don’t worry, I took a bath and a nice black pill and everything’s better now!—and this turned out to be a good episode to sleep on, because I don’t know quite what to make of it. Rather, having slept on it, I’m pretty sure I won’t know what to make of it until later in the season, once it becomes clearer what the stakes are in the 2004 and 2007 timelines, why it is we would care about each, and what we’re looking for.

It’s the latter question that interests and frustrates me about the alt-2004 timeline. Since we don’t yet know its relation to the story (Is it just a what-if fantasy? Is it an altered reality that will converge with the Island timeline?), it’s not clear what we should be  looking for in it.

Is it character development? Do characters “develop” in a hypothetical timeline based on changing the past? Claire doesn’t seem much different from the Claire we’ve seen in her flashbacks. Kate may be somewhat changed, but maybe not—she seems a little harder-edged than before when she hijacks the cab and boots Claire out, but she later proves to be the fugitive with the squishy center that we’ve seen before. The most interesting “change” we see is in Ethan, who turns up as Dr. Goodspeed, apparently a kindly OB/GYN in all earnest, having (I guess?) escaped the Island as a baby.

All that, in other words, is consistent with a scenario in which the bomb worked and the post-1977 history of the Island was erased. So are we simply watching a what-if exercise in which we see what would have happened had Oceanic 815 landed on schedule? Hmm, Kate might have run from the law, robbed Claire, then brought her to a hospital. And then, I don’t know, she might have gotten In n Out Burger for lunch. Yeah, that makes sense. But it’s interesting why?

Presumably there’s more to alt-2004 than that. We had hints last week that the status quo ante was not exactly restored: that things have been shifted and lives changed in all sorts of not immediately perceptible ways. And some point, I’m guessing, we will see things start to go sideways in the alt-2004 flashes. Until then, we’re watching not just to see what will happen, but to learn how to watch them.

That’s just as well, because the story itself was frustrating at times. Having ditched Claire penniless by the side of the road, Kate awfully quickly and conveniently comes to regret it—and immediately finds Claire (after a detour to lose her cuffs) even more conveniently. Claire, meanwhile, comes to trust the woman who pulled a gun on her and robbed her awfully quickly. And what’s the first thing you do after suddenly deciding to keep your baby as a single mother? Of course: you give your credit card to a fugitive from the law!

Back in Island-time, meanwhile, we see Kate catching up with an escaped Sawyer, and becoming deeply, personally crushed to find that he’s mourning his lover of three years who’s just died.  (I don’t, by the way, blame Evangeline Lilly for my frustration with Kate; that is, I think Lilly is playing her exactly right, as someone who’s always had to balance a desire to do the right thing with circumstances that have forced her to look out for her self-interest.)

Which brings us to Island-Claire and Undead Sayid and the question: are either of them still themselves, and if not, who have they become and why? Sayid, we’re told, has been “claimed”—does that mean possessed?—and is in danger of having his self eaten away by the “infection” at the heart of him. Dogen, the Temple Others’leader, says he knows this because the same thing happened to Claire—who, as we see her approaching Jin at the end of the episode, looks and acts as if she has basically become Rousseau. (Right down to the jungle traps, the rifle and the losing-her-baby.)

So: is there some link between Sayid’s feared infection/possession and the “sickness” that beset Rousseau’s crew? Is what is happening to Sayid similar to what the Man in Black did with Locke? Is it the work of Jacob or Smokey? (If the former, why are the Others so suddenly disturbed by Sayid’s resurrection? And if the latter, why did it come about as the result of instructions presciently sent by Jacob? If it has to do with the troubling cloudiness of the healing waters that the Others noticed, then why—since it doesn’t seem they’ve encountered that before—do they so immediately know that Sayid must be suffering the same “infection” as Claire?)

None of these—like the function of the alt-2004 timeline—are questions I can answer now. For now, we’re in a disorienting place, in a way not unlike the much-maligned start of season three. There, we also had characters separated, and/or imprisoned, and the introduction of a whole new set of Others we didn’t quite know why we should care about. A lot of fans did not care for the start of season three, but we know how spectacularly that season ended.

So: how did I like “What Kate Does”? Ask me again at the end of May.

Now the hail of bullets:

* Yes, it was annoying, as it often is on Lost, that the Others did not answer Jack’s simple questions about the infection, and more so, that he did not press them for the answers. But here I’m willing to forgive that for setting up the genius scene of Jack surprise-popping the poison pill.

* As Sawyer reminded us, the guy getting a second shot at life is an Iraqi torturer. Which raises the question: was his being tortured by the Others, to diagnose him, just ironic symmetry? Or was it a prescription specific to his person? If he were a different person, would there have been a different test?

* If Smokey is somehow behind Sayid’s resurrection, it’s a different kind of thing from his assuming Locke’s form but not taking Locke’s body. Another sign that this is not Smokey’s work, or does Smokey move in many ways?

* As Alan Sepinwall noted in his post this morning, Naveen Andrews did a remarkable job of giving us a slightly different take on Sayid, reinforcing the possibility that he may not entirely be himself.

* Hats off to Rob McElhenny of It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia, making his last appearance as the Other Aldo. Unless he becomes a zombie.

* Thinking out loud here: Is the alt-2004 Ethan really just an innocent doctor? If one assumes–big if–that he was evacuated from the Island with the Dharma women and children, it’s still possible, isn’t it, that the Dharma organization is still alive and well somewhere in Ann Arbor.

* Nice to see Arzt getting an extended alt-timeline curtain call, this time playing Ratso Rizzo at the airport: “I’m walking here!”

* The episode title, “What Kate Does,” is of course a callback to the season 2 “What Kate Did.” Is the present tense simply a clever allusion, or is it more significant?

* Time to get this posted, so please do fill in any blanks I’ve missed. I’ll be in the food court.

Related Topics: Lost, Uncategorized
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  • Tom Shaw

    Until they clearly detail the stakes of the alt-timeline for us – or give us interesting new versions of the alt-characters, that clearly say one way or the other whether their Island time has been for the better (or worse) for that person – I’m finding myself checking my watch. At this point, they just seem like fanservice (Hey look, it’s Artz! Hey, it’s Ethan!).

    Also, I am almost positive Aldo was listed as a fatality in that season three finale scene where the dynamite crew is held captive. But who can say no to Mac!

    Claire as Rousseau Part Deux is a nice thematic mirror, but it already has me wondering about the validity of the “possessions”. Is New Claire (as opposed to Alt-Claire) really evil, or the same half-crazy Danielle was, having her child abducted and left alone for years with people that want to kill her? The Others will view her actions negatively, after all, even if by Claire’s standards they are just righteous vengeance. Or is that the extent of the possession – it hardens their heart, and makes any actions reasonable to them? (Example A: Benjamin Linus.)

    About the only thing that interested me from this episode was Ethan. Are we really to believe that Amy & Horace were always supposed to end up together?
    Or is the history prior to The Incident the same in the alt-timeline: Amy has a first husband killed while picnicing, Sawyer & Co. save her life, she & baby Ethan are extracted on the sub prior to the nuke – which apparently doesn’t “blow up”, but forces The Island underwater, causing both The Dharma Initiative & The Others to leave The Island – and The Losties to jump to the Ajira era (we still don’t know the exact year – only that Rousseau was killed “years ago” in December of 04)

    If it is the latter, then things get more interesting. Alt-Hawking still has original-Daniel’s notebook, and all the older Alt-Characters still remember their time with the original-Losties in 1954 & 1974-77. If the original recipe Losties get free to the alt-world, all those older characters will have grounds to believe them – as would Alt-Daniel when he sees “his” notebook, etc.

    Or to go back to the original point, we need the timelines to get merging, or not, to know what the point of all this is.

    (Although I would argue with your Season 3 defense. The first half of Season 3 sucked because it was pointless filler, not because of the setup. We weren’t nearly as grumpy when the Freighterers showed up, after all.)

  • chriskw

    I didn’t like the alt-timeline story in this episode. First, no person can escape that easily from LAX. I can’t even drive out of Detroit Metro that quickly (and no one is chasing me). Second. why would Claire get back in the car with Kate. And why would she still be waiting at that curb. Maybe the writers were trying to suggest that Claire would trust Kate because of some sort of familiarity from the other timeline. But I didn’t get that feeling while watching the episode.

    I liked the on island stuff. Although, I am more intrigued by the fake Locke storyline. It will be nice to see him back again next week.

  • scott9701

    I’m thinking that this “claimed” business is the MIB’s version of Jacob’s “bringing” people to the island. Both sides are trying to raise an army for the coming war. As for Claire, she may have looked like Rousseau, but she reminded me more of the original Others (and she killed only the two Others in this episode, leaving Jin alive). Do you think those costumes the Others were wearing at the start of the series were just a ploy to try to fool Smokey into believing they’d been claimed so he’d leave them alone while they carried on outside the temple (and outside the protective fence at Otherton/Darmaville)? The Others have quite a different fashion sense inside the temple than they did outside it. Also, Rousseau didn’t hang with dead people, like Claire hangs with Christian. Maybe Smokey/MIB can manifest as those who arrive to the island dead and can claim those who arrive living through some unspecified mechanism. As for the 2004 timeline, I think of it as occurring in a parallel universe created by the bomb/flash. So, the 2004 timeline is real, it happened, and it will have significance in the future. We’ll see.

  • evizle

    Anybody else notice the moment Kate sees Jack while she’s in the cab? It seemed like she recognized him, and not from the plane. Or maybe I’m just seeing things. I’m starting to buy the-two-timelines-are-connected theory.

  • sclemons

    Lost shot of the ep is Claire, fade to black and the end shot of LOST. Did anyone else notice the ticking of the Smoke Monster when they went from Claire to Lost?

  • scott9701

    I think they’re definitely connected (you can’t have the new timeline without the original), and there seem to be two patterns of connection. First, you have people who have residual memories. I’m guessing that anybody with residual memories had to be involved in setting off the bomb in 1977. Although we haven’t really seen evidence of that with Hurley, Sawyer or Jin yet, we did see something like it in Juliet’s death scene, during which her consciousness seemed to be fluctuating between both timelines (plus she told Sawyer through Miles that “it worked”). I bet we see Juliet and Sawyer go out for coffee sometime this season. Second, regardless of whether they died or are still alive in the original timeline, the characters in the new timeline are having experiences parallel to those they had in the original timeline. An example from this episode: the two people most closely associated with Claire’s baby/birth in the original timeline (Kate and Ethan) were at it again in the new timeline. How the two timelines resolve, I have no idea, but I look forward to seeing how the show wraps up.

  • Dave

    I think one important detail we just don’t know is what exactly happened on-Island immediately post-nuke. If the nuke immediately sunk the Island, then there’s no Hawking, no Daniel, no Widmore, no Penny, etc. I don’t think that was the case… I think the nuke affected other things that set the wheels in motion. I’ll admit that I had initially discounted Widmore/Hawking/etc. because of the nuke, but now I’m rethinking that. It makes sense that now Hawking and Faraday have the notebook documenting things that didn’t change, so it makes sense that they would hunt down Desmond and have him try to get in touch with the not-lost Losties.

  • Rorschach

    FWIW I’m fairly certain Aldo did not die earlier. I only remember because either McElhenny or Darlton said as a joke in some interview that Aldo and every other unseen other died in a grenade blast or something. It was their way of saying we won’t see him back. It wasn’t on film though, and I didn’t get the impression it was canon.

    I wasn’t on board before, but now I do think that the Losties have some remembrance between timelines. Kate reacting to Aaron clinched it.

  • Dave

    I’ve been relating the side-line to S4′s flash forwards. I didn’t like the flash forwards they were showing us at the start of S4, and they really brought it around. I REALLY don’t like the side-line they’re showing us right now, so following that logic, I’m going to REALLY like it at the end, right? I sure hope so.

    The thing that frustrates me is I can’t get past the simple fact that this they’re 3 hours into the last season and playing the same old games of adding apparent fluff that they’re going to bring into the fold as another part of the epic story. I just want them to hurry up with it :) But it is what it is… I really do think they’ll do a great job with it. I’m just impatient.

  • archstanton68

    Can someone explain how the ring was there in the 2007 timeline? In the 1977 we saw last season, Sawyer hid it there, but then set off a series of events that led to the nuke, the island sinking and finally the alternate 2004 timeline. In that timeline, the ring is at the bottom of the pacific ocean. This is either a plothole, or it means that Sawyer and his crew were always a part of the DI but they did something different this time (like they were caught in a time loop) that caused the divergence in reality that we’re seeing this season.

  • Dave

    I think you’re thinking about the flaming arrow attack (or the Culling of the Redshirts). They cut down the Losty redshirts, not the Other redshirts.

    Unless we’re thinking about two different things, which is very possible :)

  • Dave

    I don’t think there’s any holes with the ring. By all appearances, the nuke didn’t change anything in what we’re watching on-Island other than sending the Losties back to 2007. So the 3 years Sawyer and Co. spend with the DI is still exactly the same… the only semi-stretch of the imagination that struck me was that nobody in the following 30 years would find the ring, but maybe he was so paranoid about Juliet finding it that he actually did nail down baseboards over it.

    So yes, the ring is at the bottom of the ocean in alt-2004. But it was also still under Sawyer’s floor in real-2007.

  • shara says

    I really liked this episode. I also really like Kate, and tend to enjoy Kate-centric episodes way more than the average viewer, because she is one of the more interesting characters to me (and I know that she gets on everyone else’s nerves).

    First – I liked that Kate and Claire were able to develop a rapport quickly, and how that mirrored their bond on the island. I appreciated seeing the brave, protective side of Kate – she was willing to risk everything to be there to support Claire. Whether they each had flashes of deja vu or whatever that let them feel connected, or whether it just reflects their inherent personalities (Claire optimistic and trusting and vulnerable, Kate protective and maternal), I thought it was an effective parallel to their on-island story.

    Second – Jeff Kober rocks socks. I really hope they bring him back in a 6 degrees of seperation way to interact with other characters. His brief appearance onscreen was one of the high points of the episode for me.

    Third – LOVED Jack not having faith in these new others, and his refusal to give Sayid a pill without knowing what was in it. Him swallowing it himself was a pretty awesome moment, as was the return of the “sickness”.

    I thought it was interesting that they told Jack that Sayid had to take the pill “willingly” or it wouldn’t work. What might that mean?

    I’m still digesting, but loving this season so far.

  • shara says

    Yeah, what Dave said!

  • denisemorris

    Ok, I’m mainly just thinking “out loud” here, so sorry for the upcoming ramble or if I’m just repeating what other people have already said.

    I didn’t love this episode–I thought it moved kind of slowly, and I never love an episode with too much Kate. She bugs.

    However, they have a lot of setup to do, and like has been mentioned, I’m sure it will all be more significant and make more sense once we know more about what’s going on.

    I’m actually kind of hesitantly liking the 2004 timeline. I definitely think it’s real and actually happening.

    I definitely did feel that it was a bit rushed for Claire and Kate to suddenly become BFF, but I feel like the point that they’re making is that even though everything is different and the island never happened, everything is also the same. On the island, Kate and Claire were together when she had her baby. Same in 2004. On the island, creeper Ethan was all up in Claire’s baby business, giving her weird shots galore. Same in 2004. Because of a plane crash onto an island, Claire couldn’t give up her baby. In 2004, the adoptive parents split up, so Claire can keep her baby. And on and on it goes.

    In this episode, Kate started to have the flashes of recognition that Jack had on the plane in the premiere. She seems to recognize that stuffed whale toy that she pulls out of Aaron’s bag, because her Aaron had that same toy in her post-island life. She seemed to recognize Jack in an odd way. Etc. She’s starting to “remember”?

    Anyhoo, I think it’ll be kind of interesting to see how things continue to unfold in 2004, and I’m guessing the two timelines will converge at some point.

    On the island timeline, I’m a little more confused. I don’t quite get what’s going on with Sayid because of what was mentioned above. Did he become Smokey? If that’s what happened, why would Jacob have made sure he got to the temple to become Smokey? Don’t quite get it yet.

    Awesome to see Claire as a Rousseau figure. Liked it.

    Finally, not sure if there’s a connection but the Others’temple leader is named “Dagon” right? Dagon is a Philistine god mentioned in the Bible (1 Samuel 5), and I think he was some kind of fertility/fish god or something. Any significance? And what does Mr. Dagon Temple Leader do all day? What was he typing on that old school typewriter? What was with the baseball? I want to know more about him.

    Ramble complete.

  • denisemorris

    Oh, one more thing. I love Sawyer more than EVER. Heartbreaking to see him so sad.

  • Tom Shaw

    Dave, I agree, we don’t know exactly what happened in the immediate aftermath of the nuke. My gut says that somehow* everyone had time to evacuate the Island by boat, at which point someone (probably Alt-Richard) used The Wheel to get The Alt-Island away from the explosion, though it lands underwater.

    Actually, I like this idea: the unexplained nuke going off raises tensions in the alt-world, such that they are much closer to nuclear war than our world is. The Valenzetti Equation lives!

    *You got me on how. Whatever is under the Swan still absorbs the explosion, but this time instead of building The Swan to contain it, they evacuate? Maybe The Swan was always a joint construction between The Others & Dharma (hence the hieroglyphics).

  • Dave

    Yeah, I’m really struggling to come up with not-absurd ideas on a lot of the details, but I really like the notebook as a tangible connection between the two universes.

  • Dave

    Thanks for the reminder! I really want to rewatch the scenes with Dagon’s office. A typewriter and an old baseball… what else did he have?

  • denisemorris

    @Dave

    The only “out of place” type items I can remember are the typewriter and the baseball. I’m trying to remember baseball references we’ve had in Lost. It’s just been in relation to Jack and the Red Sox winning the World Series, right?

  • Chaddogg

    Definitely a “set-up” episode for a larger purpose, but one with a surprising amount of poignancy.

    You have to start off with the emotional highlight of the episode — Sawyer. His tangible pain at losing Juliet was phenomenally played by Josh Holloway — I loved his embittered “he’s an Iraqi torturer that shoots kids, of course he gets to come back” comment not for its humor, but for its reflection on his feelings for Juliet, and that she was unfairly taken from him. Digging up the ring, confessing to Kate that he made Juliet stay and was thus guilty/culpable in her death, and his idea that he’s destined to be alone….wow. Just incredibly full of pathos and tragedy.

    Jack, too, had a number of GREAT scenes tonight — talking to Dogen (and saying, in effect, “I don’t trust myself” — a powerful confession for Dr. Fix-It, Island Self-Appointed Leader); talking with Sayid (you almost could feel the weariness in both of them, and the sense that they almost wanted to just give up and have Sayid take the pill because the battle has gone on too long); and talking with Kate (“You take care of Sawyer, I’ll take care of Sayid”). Jack is seriously becoming a MUCH more interesting character — much like Season 1 Jack. Which just so happens to match the Season 1=Season 6 parallel that i think exists.

    Notably, this parallel exists with Island Claire, who has been “claimed” or “infected,” or so we’re told. Not sure what that means, and I’m not going to theorize on it (I’d rather let this mystery play out), but I do love that Claire Season 6 = Rousseau Season 1. They’re both doing the traps in the jungle/shooting people with a rifle thing. They both look dissheveled. They both lost their children. And (presumably?) they both think that other people are “infected” (we haven’t heard from Island Claire yet, but I’m betting she has a different take on “infection” and being “claimed.”) Oh, one more cool parallel — just as Rousseau’s trap captured Sayid in Season 1, Claire’s bear trap captured Jin. And Jin (like Sayid) left his group to “explore the island” — for Sayid, it was over guilt at his torturing and to find a way off the island; for Jin, it was to find Sun.

    One BIG reveal, that only was noticeable to the super-Lost fans that were quick on their screencaps (FEEL FREE TO TURN AROUND NOW IF YOU DON’T WANT TO KNOW SOMETHING YOU COULD ONLY CATCH IN A SCREEN CAP) — Claire’s sonogram picture was dated OCTOBER 22, 2004. The date of Oceanic 815′s crash was supposedly SEPTEMBER 22, 2004. In the alt-2004, was the flight actually a MONTH later? What is going on?

    I also think something else is up in the alt-2004 world — it seems like these characters KNOW each other. Kate’s recognition in the cab of Jack may have just been her seeing him again after the alt-2004 plane bathroom encounter, but it seemed like more (almost like Jack-Desmond’s encounter). I don’t think Claire would have gotten back in the cab with a woman who robbed her/carjacked her…yet she did, perhaps because subconsciously she KNEW Kate and trusted her? Ditto Kate going back for Claire — it SEEMS like she recognized the toys. And Claire naming Aaron, or being nervous around Ethan (and, I should note, not wanting him to deliver Aaron)…..all of this suggests that alt-2004 is, in some ways, influenced by all we’ve seen the past 5 seasons.

    So, I give this episode a solid, but not spectacular, B. Raising good questions, and setting the table for some AMAZING things, I predict.

  • byhamj

    I loved Claire being Rousseau… although, why would she not remember who Jin was? She had that look of hesitation as though she vaguely remembers him, but just can’t quite place it…

    Also, love Sawyer!

    I know that they are taking their time to give us answers, and in the meantime ofcourse giving us more questions… Typical! But, it was sort of annoying that there was no more development with the whole new “Locke”. Next week looks like it will deliver on that though!

  • leto3

    I love this blog and don’t want to advertise for the competition too much, but Doc Jenson’s EW.com recap was about the craziest stream of consciousness Lost analysis ever, and I thought it was awesomely bizarre and worth reading by any lost followers.

    “The peace of the internets upon you”

  • Chaddogg

    I write only to note that the bomb went off DEEP underground down in that pit — could such an explosion essentially sink what was a volcanic island/atoll? And would that happen slowly enough to allow people to escape? And weren’t people already escaping prior to the Incident?

    Just a weird thought I had….

  • Chaddogg

    Not really advertising for the competition — Time and EW.com are both owned by the same-corporate parent.

  • mortalfool

    Yes, hard to escape from the real LAX, but this was really shot at HNL and its surrounding area.

  • natego

    By complete coincidence, I watched “Not In Portland” yesterday before the new episode and that has Aldo in it. He gets knocked out with the butt of a gun, then woken up by Danny who finds out from him where Kate and Sawyer went, thats the last you see of him until last night methinks.

  • Dave

    I’ve tried getting into Doc Jensen’s stuff, and it could be that since most of his analysis is so long-winded that I don’t have the time to really get into it. But something else that influences it is that I tend to chafe against theories that get especially absurd, and Doc’s theories tend to get really out there. Or at least the ones I’ve had time to read did :)

  • lynneking

    It’s definately heartbreaking to see Saywer so guilt stricken and bereaved over Juliet (whom I have despised since first glimpse of her as a rival for Jack’s affection) but it is good to see him display emotions other than distrust, anger, greed, selfishness and vengence. It makes him a more likeable and real character.

    Sawyer, Kate and Jack are my favorites. Followed by Charlie, Sayid and Hurley. I never trusted Juliet, she was an “Other” and she quickly wormed her way in between Jack and Kate and I liked that even less. Its a wonderful storyline/plot twist that she and Sawyer end up together. It is like they are only paired up because their true love interests are gone, so its a “it’s just you and me babe” kinda thing.
    In my opinion, if Jack and Kate had stayed on the Island, then Juliet and Sawyer NEVER would have been together and fallen in love.

  • adriaezn

    So we’ve now had two brief moments of seemingly deeper recognition – the first by Jack when he sees Desmond, and now the second by Kate, when she glances Jack while escaping. Me thinks these will grow more frequent as the (what I deem to be “less stable”) 2004 timeline progresses. And all I can keep thinking about is Aaron’s supposed “importance” to the island. One of the two boys (’04 or ’07) must make it back there at some point, I believe.

    I’m increasingly beginning to think that Smokey-Locke may be the benevolent force on the island after all – whereas Jacob is the evil force. Think about it – the others are told (by Jacob) that if Sayid dies, they will be in big trouble. So they try desperately to save him in their holy water (by seemingly killing him, though this was not their intent) – when he dies, Jacob takes him over in a way similar to the way Smokey does Locke, but also entirely different – as a gradual infection, rather than assuming his form. Also, every time a violent action is taken against smokey (such as shots being fired) he crushes the violence to end it. I’m beginning to like Smokey more and more…at least he’s starting to explain himself.

  • mcnater

    Everyone see this video? It’s pretty awesome and explains the time-travel pretty well in a way that makes sense.

  • shara says

    The imagery of dogan stabbing sayid with a hot poker in the side (which looked like a spear to me) stuck with me, so I’ve been thinking about religious parallels. We’ve already seen Sayid get raised out of the water with the christ-arm-thing, then the resurrection, so the spear to the side thing could be an added parallel to the crucifixion story – allegedly some dude poked dead Jesus in the side to see if he was alive or dead.

    Additionally, I’ve seen a painting that depicts Michael the Archangel using a spear to kick Lucifer out of heaven…

  • olivececile

    * As Sawyer reminded us, the guy getting a second shot at life is an Iraqi torturer. Which raises the question: was his being tortured by the Others, to diagnose him, just ironic symmetry? Or was it a prescription specific to his person? If he were a different person, would there have been a different test?

    I think you could be on to something here. Sayid didn’t have any particular physical reaction to the torture (besides the usual Ow that hurts reaction). So either they were expecting a reaction they didn’t see or the reaction they were looking for wasn’t physical. Sayid begging not to be tortured didn’t quite seem right – no one likes getting hot-pokered but Sayid is usually more badass than that. Haven’t we seen him be tortured before with less reaction?

    Maybe his timidity is the symptom.

  • shara says

    yeah i was wondering about that too – all of a sudden he can dish it out but not take it? Anyway, then I read Doc Jensen’s zombie poker test theory over at ew.com and that started making sense. Doc Jensen writes:

    “I also have to wonder if Lost last night was poking at the whole notion of ”Philosophical Zombies.” The basic notion is this: If there is no discernable difference between being human and being a zombie — and many philosophers would say there isn’t — then what does it mean to be human? What’s the difference being ”alive,” ”dead,” or ”undead”? Interestingly enough, the common example given in these debates — and the first one offered by Wikipedia — involves a tool Dogen used last night: a poker. ”When a zombie is poked with a sharp object it does not feel any pain. While it behaves exactly as if it does feel pain (it may say “ouch” and recoil from the stimulus, or tell us that it is in intense pain), it does not actually have the experience of pain as a putative ‘normal’person does.””
    http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20313460_20343202_5,00.html

  • Dave

    As a friend and I were discussing the episode last night, we got on a maybe-related tangent based on the Rousseau/Claire/Sayid sickness/infection/whatever-it-is. Might this infection be the same thing the DI would have people inject themselves to prevent? My friend argued that it was just another means of controlling the Swan workers and keeping them inside as a placebo. I argued that Kelvin was taking the safety seriously (he was wearing the hazmat suit when he rescued Des) until he started working on the boat. He started doubting and taking the suit off… he got corrupted by the darkness and started turning Rousseauish, but he died before we really got a good look at it.

    Of course, it could be totally unrelated and irrelevant, but I figured it was interesting enough to throw out to the collective.

  • olivececile

    I’ve been wondering if the Free Will thing is at play here. While some Others certainly are willing and able to question authority (Friendly, for instance, and Juliet), some have been shown to give themselves over pretty completely (Cindy, for instance, let go of her old life pretty easily).

    We’ve also seen Others do terrible things, and justify terrible things, all in the name of something they can’t fully understand (even Ben didn’t fully understand it). We’ve been shown that, in some cases, brainwashing is necessary to bring wanderers back into the fold.

    Jacob and Esau appear to have some connection to Free Will vs. Destiny, and the Others are apparently connected to Jacob, but they don’t seem too big on Free Will. Maybe the infection has something to do with that?

  • Mipiace

    “Second, regardless of whether they died or are still alive in the original timeline, the characters in the new timeline are having experiences parallel to those they had in the original timeline. An example from this episode: the two people most closely associated with Claire’s baby/birth in the original timeline (Kate and Ethan) were at it again in the new timeline.”

    - Also, in both timelines Claire’s baby does not end up with the adoptive parents. As if regardless of what journey Claire took (Island/Safe landing) Aaron is not ultimately adopted by strangers.

  • http://jimfromla.wordpress.com jimfromla

    Did anybody notice that in the pilot episode everybody for the most part had different hair styles. Jack and Charlie originally had buzz cuts, but in the alt-timeline their hair is grown out. Clearly time didn’t go backwards but the present has been changed.

    Mrs. Hawking stated that the island is a major portal of a worldwide system, so what happens on the island really has global consequences.

    Finally, I have to say my gut tells me that the good guys are the Smoke Monster, Charles Widmore and everybody who is in league with them. The conversation between Jacob and the Smoke Monster/Man in Black from the 1700′s depicts the Man in Black as the moral one. Jacob is the one who encourages chaos from free will (an attribute associated with the Biblical Lucifer). Widmore was cast off the island by Ben who has taking orders from Jacob. And let’s not forget the folksy wisdom of Lapidus and Sun, who simply didn’t get a good feeling from Jacob’s bodyguards.

  • antilles13

    First off, I have to say I hate the fact my place of employment has gone all internet-nazis on us, and I can’t check this blog at work. I feel so behind.

    At any rate, did anyone else notice that Claire’s ultrasound photo was dated 10/22/2004? I can’t figure out how important it would be that the flight now appears to be a month later, but it’s 2004 so it almost has to be intentional. DarkUFO has a screenshot: http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/75afa122b3a07f870f669b75aa4ef2df. See the upper right corner.

  • antilles13

    Though I suppse it could be the due date…

  • rosseau

    Okay, me thinking out loud: We know MIB is Smokey and perhaps the fire in the statue is actually him in his real form. That is why Jacob had to be put in the fire, because that is the way he could have died. But what if Jacob is the water in the Temple?

    He can bring people back to life and they will be themselves, but only when he is alive. When his human form dies, a part of Jacob dies, and this is what contaminates the water and turns Sayid into bad Sayid. Maybe both forces–Jacob and MIB–have this power and the French crew were infected by Smokey but Claire was infected by contaminated water Jacob? So maybe his human forms in the past died and right after anybody put in the water came out a little different. This would explain how Ben perhaps came out a little different when he was shot, or maybe Jacob was alive then and Ben did not become infected, but just turned out to be unstable by himself.

    Though the big hole in this theory is if Jacob in his human form died before and who killed him, since we have to explain zombie Claire. And the who killed him part is because from the last episode of last season, it seems like MIB found a way to kill Jacob, with the fire. Finding the loophole. Perhaps both have killed each other’s avatars and this has caused contaminated water and French crew infections. Maybe Jacob wasn’t totally killed in the statue, came to Hurley, thought he could rescue Sayid but his wounds were too great so Sayid became a zombie.

    Anyway, that’s my Lost Crazy Thought of the Week.

  • rosseau

    That needed a lot of editing, but hopefully I made my basic point.

    As to the episode itself, this is what Sayid said:

    Sayid: They tortured me! They didn’t ask me any questions.

    This is what I say:

    Me: They tortured us. They didn’t give us any answers.

    Seriously, this felt like the longest pre title intro ever. We learned one thing: that there is a demon infection or some contamination that turns good people bad and Claire has it and Sayid has it. Claire’s reveal wasn’t surprising because we had already seen in in the alt timeline (and that whole thing was absurd–a pregnant women having her baby any day now will get willingly into a car with a woman who held a gun to her head and take her to the location of where her baby will live?) Ethan was nice, but the human version of Cindy handing Jack two bottles instead of one, unless he has more to do in future episodes. And this whole thing played like a meta comment on Lost’s main frustration of not giving any answers by having characters not ask or not answer. Jack literally spent the entire time asking what the heck was going on and not getting bupkus. C’mon guys it’s the last season, you only have like 14 episodes to go, give us some answers!

  • des1989

    I think the baseball is just an allusion to his life before the island…he’s from Japan and baseball is huge there. It’s certainly possible we’ll see a flashback.

  • jeia56

    Did anyone else expect the episode to end with a gun shot ringing out after Sawyer had stalked back into his Dharma house after throwing his ring into the ocean? I definitely did. That would’ve been an insane ending.

  • http://vpaulsmithjr.wordpress.com vpaulsmithjr

    It’s easy to follow but is quite flawed, and often contradictory. He says it’s a one-timeline theory, but everything he says in it is the opposite. Is the island sunk or not. You can’t have it both ways in a one-timeline theory.

  • amrios

    …Great recap; thank you for reminding me of the start of season 3, and for voicing my concern/trouble with these new characters(Ilana&crew, and Samurai dude&crew): its 3 hours in, last season, and they still haven’t showed me why I should care about them…maybe I’m being impatient?…

  • Dave

    My friend and I came to a pretty important difference in our alt-2004 theories: I think that the bomb created a divergence – a splitting of the timeline, if you will; he thinks that alt-2004 is an entirely separate universe, with its own past. This spawned from discussing Tom’s point about Daniels notebook above.

    I’m thinking that if Hawking has Daniel’s notebook, she and Widmore will figure out very quickly that things are different (“Hm… he doesn’t talk about the Island sinking in here…”), and even though alt-Des hasn’t been made special by the fail-safe, I think they’d suspect that his non-alt specialness might be important and manipulate him to be on 815.

    Also, if he’s married, there’s no reason for Des to be training for the race, so he wouldn’t have met Jack before. Or at least, so I assume :)

  • mortalfool

    I think we need to look more to the ocean as somehow being a cleansing/unifying/connecting factor…perhaps even as an over-arching “character.”

  • natego

    i think he’s saying its a loop. every 30 years someone goes back and sinks the island, however, i agree this video is full of holes. If every iteration is different, then how do the exact same events occur every thirty years to sink the island.

  • ragingbull913

    I can completely understand frustration with the alternative timelines.

    Cuse and Littlehoff has said that this season is going to most likely resemble season 1, but I think that it will also closely mirror season 3. In that season you may remember that Desmond had visions of how Charlie was going to die. Time after time, he undermined this destiny, only to have a different vision of how Charlie was destined to die. What was Charlie’s only line in the season 6 opener, “I was supposed to die.”

    So regardless of the fact they didnt land on the island, their off island lives are still set to play out according to events on the island. Take this last episode for instance. Kate was there as Claire was about to go into labor. Ethan was there foreshadowing the false labor pains. Claire’s opportunity to give the baby up for adoption was foiled. Claire shouted “Aaron” during labor contractions.

    Some things are just destined. Even with the alternative timeline, it is wholly possible that those in 2007 are acting out the fulfillment of the alterna-verse of Lost, not the one we had grown with.

  • treepeony

    Finally, not sure if there’s a connection but the Others’temple leader is named “Dagon” right?
    .
    No, his name is Dogen. Dogen is a famous japanese buddihst monk and he is famous for writing, Treasury of the Eye of the True Dharma. It can also be translated as the Right-dharma-eye treasury. Given that the actor is japanese I’m going with the Dogen connection over a philistine fish god.
    .
    Also, my friend and I had a thought. What if the Others think that Sayid is ‘claimed/poisoned’because when Sayid died and came back he was supposed to have become enlightened? Upon reach enlightenment, you are not supposed to feel any pain and by Sayid feeling pain it is clear that he is not enlightened and therefore they have to get rid of him lest he become and abomination?

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