Tuned In

Lostwatch: Everything That Rises Must Converge. Eventually. Right?

ABC
ABC

 

Before you read this post, take a leap to the bottom of the world’s softest mineshaft and watch last night’s season five finale of Lost.

“I’m beginning to think that you make up these rules as you go along.” —Locke (or is he Locke?) to Richard

Everyone’s had this feeling about Lost at some point, right? Well, after the season 5 finale, I don’t quite feel this way, simply because so much that we’ve seen plotted in the early seasons of the show has come full circle. That’s as far as the grand scheme of Lost is concerned: I have faith in that much. But as far as the details are concerned—how that grand scheme gets executed—that seems to be subject to a certain amount of improvisation. That’s responsible for some of Lost’s finest elements (the fact, for instance, that Michael Emerson ended up a series regular) and some of its weaker ones (the seeming dead-ends of characters like Shannon, e.g.). 

Which maybe explains why this finale was at times thrilling and awesome and other times disappointing. There’s a lot of story here—and a lot of tidbits to analyze that I’m not going to take the time to learn Latin to figure out tonight. And I want to get something posted so you all can take over the discussion. So for practical purposes I’m going to divide this into Things I Liked, Things I Didn’t Like, and Things I May or May Not Have Liked But I’m Going to Have to Wait Until 2010 to Find Out. 

Things I Liked: The strange, disorienting, Beckettian interchange at the beginning between Jacob and his roommate/deadly enemy, whom I will henceforth call Fred. (Though I’m not sure I like the fact of that relationship itself—more on that later.) The climactic performances of several actors who’d been featured this season, especialy Sawyer’s wrenching goodbye to Juliet and Ben’s possibly even more wrenching kiss-off to Jacob. (Who by the way is very well-kept and modern-groomed for a hundreds-year-old Island deity.)

[Update: I should probably quote part of that exchange between Jacob and Fred, because of its comment on all the Island's guests over time:  "They come, they fight, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same." "It only ends once. Anything that happens before that--it's just progress." This has all happened before, and it will all happen again.]

I liked, because who couldn’t, seeing Jack and Sawyer finally come bloodily to blows. But more than that, I liked seeing Rose and Bernard (and Vincent), and having them put into perspective the drama that their fellow castaways carry with them wherever they go: “We traveled 30 years back in time and you’re still finding ways to shoot each other?”

I surprisingly liked the Jacob flashbacks, even though they were of scenes and character moments we’d covered before, and even though his appearance lost its impact after so many repetitions. (His sitting reading Flannery O’Connor’s Everything That Rises Must Converge as Locke fell from a building behind him was brilliant.) Did he resurrect Locke or just wake him—and either way, given that he must have some foreknowledge about all the characters whose lives he was stepping into, did he know what “Locke” would do to him all along?

Above all, I simply enjoyed the hurtling pace and balance of stories in the first two-thirds or so of the finale. Somewhere after the first commercial break, I was struck by a simple fact: how amazing it is that a story of this scope and complexity is on commercial TV at all. Eighteen minutes into the episode, we had seen seven scenes, with seven different sets of characters, in different locations and different times—some of those times being “flashbacks” that were farther ahead in time than the “present”—and yet it all fit together and made sense. 

Things I Didn’t Like: From the moment that Juliet “changed her mind” and told Sawyer that Jack needed to set off his bomb after all, something seemed off, at least about the 1977 storyline. It’s usually a bad idea to begin with whenever big decisions are made on Lost on the basis of the Jack-Kate-Sawyer love triangle. (Particularly when Jack, having just explained the urgency of getting the bomb in place like now, stops in the jungle to talk with Kate about their relation ship. Or, as my notes read: “While Kate and Jack ARE BULLS__TTING ABOUT THEIR FEELINGS, alarms go off at the Swan…”) And this bit seemed especially forced.

Why did Juliet decide that they had to go back to stop Jack, and then, just as soon, that they had to help Jack? Sawyer’s noting that her indecision seemed crazy didn’t make it any less so. Perhaps she did see how Sawyer looked at Kate and that affected her—but she was seeing, and suspecting, those glances since Freckles returned. Ultimately, it just seemed an especially transparent move to get the chess pieces into place: Sawyer, Juliet and Kate had somehow to get from the sub back to the jungle, and then Juliet had to get into the Swan pit with the bomb. It was only more distracting that Cuse and Lindelof would try to give her actions the thinnest of motivation with that generic and tacked-on-seeming flashback to her parents’ divorce. (Though I was waiting for Jacob to show up as a marriage counselor.) 

From there, the denouement of the 1977 showdown was—well, not a disappointment, exactly, but awfully anticlimactic for something that ended in the detonation of a nuclear bomb. Oh, the Battle of the Swan was thrilling—probably the purest edge-of-my-seat Lost scene this season, and Phil got spiked like a cocktail weenie by a piece of rebar!

But consider what happened, in a nutshell. We were told earlier what Jack and company would try to do (detonate an H-bomb). They do it (after a fall down a gigantic rock mine shaft fails either to kill Juliet or set off the hair-trigger bomb, but a whack with a rock by a petite dying woman does the trick). Oh, also, we were told last week that Locke would kill Jacob, and that happened too. (So much for my theory that it would not be a literal murder.)

And then… we find out next year what, if anything, happened as a result. 

Previous Lost seasons have ended with a few ending seconds that upended the story and changed the game for the next season. The explosion of the bomb didn’t do that—so, I guess, kudos at least for subverting that expectation. 

Of course, the episode’s other climax did include quite the switcheroo, so that brings us to…

Things I May or May Not Have Liked But I’m Going to Have to Wait Until 2010 to Find Out. So what is Locke now? Is he Fred? If so, how long has he been Fred? And maybe more important, how long has he been aware that he has been Fred? (Fred/Locke, note, appears to have access to all of actual living Locke’s memories.) Has he known, all this season as we cheered him on, that he was actually the avatar of some grudge-holding Island being? 

If so, this raises some implications that I’ll get into in a minute. But first: the Jacob-Fred rivalry itself. What worries me is the possibility that, having invested ourselves for five years in the stories of the Oceanic castaways and the various rivalries—our heroes, the Others, Dharma, Ben, Widmore—that in fact, this entire time, we have been watching a show about someone else’s conflict? That conflict being between two characters we have met for the first time at the end of the next-to-last season? 

I mean, it may be a tremendously cool story. It may involve philosophy and intellectual history and the Egyptian Gods and Latin. But that doesn’t mean I can get emotionally invested in it. But this is too dependent on how it plays out to pass judgment on. Hence we throw it in the wait-for-2010 pile. 

Let’s geek out instead for a minute on what it means—or may mean—that Locke’s body was in the casket all the time and that Locke’s death was evidently a means for Fred to find his “loophole.” (Which was what, by the way? That Fred would have to become the Leader to kill Jacob? Or to find him? That he would have to corporeally assume another identity to kill Jacob? Or simply that he would have to find another person to do the deed? Oh, and do these “rules” have anything to do with the ones Ben says Widmore broke?) 

The reason Locke/Fred is the now the leader is contingent on beliefs that Richard has held for decades about Locke’s specialness, which were planted in his head by Locke himself—or, it now apparently turns out, by Fred himself. It was a post-”resurrection” Locke who gives Richard the compass and instructs Richard as to how to receive him in the future. [Update: Corrected—as pointed out in the comments, Locke gave Richard the compass before leaving the Island and dying. Or "dying." Or whatever. Update 2: Correction re-uncorrected, as the post-res Locke give the compass to Richard, with instructions to give it to pre-res Locke... and to tell him he must die. I think. I'm tired. Let's hope this is my last update.] If that was all an elaborate ruse, from the very start of this season, I have to admit it was a cool one. (Though—again put this on the 2010 pile—is it worth it at the cost of Terry O’Quinn playing Lost’s final season as a villain?)

But if that was Fred’s game, what was Jacob’s? Why was he visiting the central characters at various formative stages of their lives? (And how explicitly was he guiding them? In some cases, as with Kate and Sawyer, he seem to simply be there to bestow a blessing or “give a little push,” as with Jack and the Apollo bar; with Hurley, he gave word-for-word instructions; with Sayid, he pulled a look-over-there stunt to get Nadia killed by a car—and, presumably, to turn Sayid into a murderer for the man who would murder him.) Why, again, would he visit Locke, if Locke would later become the vessel for his murderer–and yet also summon Ilana? What’s his connection with the Shadow of the Statue people? Is everything still unfolding according to his plan, or was his plan thwarted? 

[Shrugs.] I got nothing. That’s what you’re here for. That’s what the eight long months until Lost returns one last time is for. Now for a brief hail of electromagnetically-hurled bullets:

* We now know how Pierre/Marvin lost his arm. Forgive my poor memory and fogginess, but did Radzinsky survive the Incident? Things were not looking good for him, but presumably (at east in the old timeline) he had to live to end up in the hatch with Clancy Brown.

* “Well, it’s a wonderful foot, Richard, but what does it have to do with Jacob?” Funny line. But if Locke is at this point Fred–and is aware of it–then wouldn’t he know that already? (Or does he need to hide that knowledge?)

* Am I correct to assume that any of the various languages I could not identify this episode were Latin?

* “He isn’t there. Hasn’t been there for a long time. Somebody else has been using it.” This is probably one of those lines that is far more significant than I realize. How long has it been since Jacob has been away from the cabin? Can we still assume it was Jacob Locke saw in the cabin in 2004?

* “Has it occured to any of you that perhaps your little buddy is going to cause the thing he’s trying to prevent? … I’m glad you’ve all thought this through.” Thank you, Miles. Though again, the fact that he vocalizes this objection doesn’t make it any less of an objection. This occurred to no one? Really?

* I did not call the metal box as holding Locke’s body, but Mrs. Tuned In did, nearly from the second it appeared. You?

* The name of the title story in that O’Connor book Jacob was reading, Everything That Rises Must Converge, is–this was way back in my mind from a misspent undergrad lit degree–taken from the work of Jesuit philosopher Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. But I don’t know enough about his work to relate it to the episode, or to Jacob. I’ll let the Internet do that.

* I’m glad to see Frank back: “In my experience, the people who go out of their way to tell you they’re the good guys are the bad guys.” Especially meaningful given his “experience” with the Freighties. But back to him and the SoTS people: What the hell is a “Candidate”? The same as a “Leader”? I can only imagine what the flowchart of all the various groups on this show will look like after the series finale.

* Nice small ending touch: the black-on-white, as opposed to white-on-black, LOST after the nuclear explosion.

* During that lovely little scene with Bernard and Rose, I had the sad, sinking feeling that this would be the last time we see them. I have no particular knowledge and I hope I’m wrong, but the scene had the feeling of a farewell.

* Finally, even though he’s become a much more dramatic character and suffered a terrible loss this finale, it’s good to see Sawyer can still bring the funny: “This don’t look like LAX.” No, it don’t. I can’t wait to see where this plane lands.

[All right, I'm sure I've skipped over many important revelations and clues, but I need some sleep, I'm over 2000 words and I want to give you a crack at this. I may add more in the comments tomorrow—and, I'm sure, correct numerous errors in my hastily banged-out writeup. For now, have at it.]

Related Topics: lost, Uncategorized
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  • jimmycrack

    Great write-up, James. What an incredible, epic episode! So much to take in. I’m going to guess that it’s been Fred/Blackie trapped in the cabin all this time, and that Ilana and her team were troubled to find that the ash had been disturbed and the man himself escaped.
    .
    Then again, the way my guesses went this season, I think I’ll give up on trying to predict where this all goes!

  • Matt

    The text in Jacob’s tapestry at the beginning is Ancient Greek. I’m rusty with that, I could only make out some letters. The answer to what lies in the shadow of the statue is “ille quid nos omnes servabit” or “he who will save/protect us all.”
    .
    One thought and a major question before I go to sleep and percolate this episode throughout my dreams and my commute to work: the person we thought was Jacob in “Man Behind the Curtain” is actually Fred (or, because he’s Jacob’s enemy, I like calling him Esau). And it’s been Fred/Esau who has been assuming the forms of all the dead people – Christian, Charlie, etc.
    .
    All the electro-magnetism went crazy before the bomb exploded. Is THAT the incident, and Juliet setting the bomb off is changing the future? Or was that always part 1 of the incident, and the bomb was always part 2? Guess we have to wait til January!

  • josilot

    An assumption I’ve made is that the smoke monster is a machination of Fred’s, and is in direct opposition to Jacob. I’m basing this off of the visit Ben had with the monster, when it told him to do everything Locke told him to do, which would be silly for a pro-Jacob entity to do. So if we assume that the smoke monster is indeed anti-Jacob, then this puts a lot of things we’ve seen into perspective. Off the top of my head, we’ve seen the smoke monster visiting and judging Locke, and leaving him alone. Here might be when Fred realized the potential of Locke. Also, we’ve seen the smoke monster kill Mr. Eko. Does that mean Mr. Eko was pro-Jacob?

    I’m sure the smoke monster has come up other times, too. Like at the very beginning of the first season, when it ate the pilot and freaked out the whole 815 crew. What was the motivation for that, to see lead them down the path of becoming potential allies?

    It’s a good thing we have 8 months before the next episode, I’m gonna need them to figure everything out.

  • josilot

    sorry, not a regular! I’ve just figured out why people dot their paragraphs!

  • natego

    @Jimmy.. James.. Yes! Great write up!!
    .
    Radzinsky has to survive the incident because he lives to join the U.S Army guy (Kelvin) in the hatch before blowing his brains out. That is unless the H-Bomb actually DOES change the past.
    .
    One think I came away with is Jacob def has some loophole, if not Christian Shephard. There’s no way he’d step right up to Ben unless he wanted to be killed, which is what I believe. He purposefully provoked Ben to kill him so he could pursue his loophole. He has a plan up his sleeve.
    .
    The Latin translation of what Richard said was “He who will save us all” when SotS people asked him the question.
    .
    The incident scene was one of the best scenes ever on Lost IMO.. Very much on the edge of your seat.
    .
    Cmon… Juliet survives that fall. That was HOOOORRRRIIIBLLLE.
    .
    There was something weird about the end of the Rose/Bernard scene when Bernard says something to Juliet and Juliet sort of puts her hand over her stomach.. Watching that made it look like she was pregnant or something and was hiding it. It was just weird.. didn’t sit right.
    .
    When I first saw the Blond/Fair skinned Jacob, I immediately thought it was Aaron grown up. Was this a fakeout by the writers? Or does anyone think this is still a possibility???

  • natego

    One other thing that bothers me. It seems that Ilana becomes a main character in season 6. Not too crazy bout that… shes pretty annoying and not nearly as great an actor/character as Daniel Faraday , etc.

  • elkaba

    @jimmycrack… “I’m going to guess that it’s been Fred/Blackie trapped in the cabin all this time, and that Ilana and her team were troubled to find that the ash had been disturbed and the man himself escaped.” That was my impression, too. Illana appeared to be on guard or frightened as she approaches the cabin. After realizing she was on a mission for Jacob, I wondered why she would be afraid unless she expected someone evil or dangerous to be there.

    @James…You and all of Lostpedia have assumed the bomb went off, but it didn’t seem that way to me at the time. For one, I noticed they were drilling in an already-wide, perfectly circular hole, actually what I took to be a well, since the walls were bricked… sound familiar? Anyway, I took the flash at the end to be the same flash that always signals a time jump, not the bomb, since there was only light, not an explosion.

  • kespel

    @James in re: Everything that Converges:
    .
    Seems some cursory wikipedia research uncovers that Pierre Teilhard de Chardin came up with the concept of Omega Point, which is given the following summary:
    .
    In this theory, the universe is constantly developing towards higher levels of material complexity and consciousness, a theory of evolution that Teilhard called the Law of Complexity/Consciousness. For Teilhard, the universe can only move in the direction of more complexity and consciousness if it is being drawn by a supreme point of complexity and consciousness. Thus Teilhard postulates the Omega Point as the supreme point of complexity and consciousness, which is not only as the term of the evolutionary process, but is also the actual cause for the universe to grow in complexity and consciousness. In other words, the Omega Point exists as supremely complex and conscious, independent of the evolving universe. I.e., the Omega Point is transcendent. In interpreting the universe this way, Teilhard kept the Omega Point within the orthodox views of the Christian God, who is transcendent (independent) of his creation.
    .
    Teilhard argued that the Omega Point resembles the Christian Logos, namely Christ, who draws all things into himself, who in the words of the Nicene Creed, is “God from God”, “Light from Light”, “True God from true God,” and “through him all things were made.”

    .
    It would seem to me that this brings up some interesting ideas for how events, ideas, etc. influence the happenings of Lost and the growing complexity that further creates more complexity. It seems very cyclical without being repetitive. Or something. The wikipedia page also turns up some other interesting things about the Omega Point which may be relevant. Check it out.

  • elkaba

    @kespel…your Omega Point info ties back into something that was said between Jacob and Fred on the beach. I don’t have DVR, so I can’t check it, but I believe Fred was arguing against progress and change, while Jacob was saying it was inevitable.

  • officialchrisduncan

    This also makes me wonder about Jacob’s lists… why were Kate and Jack not on his list and do we have anymore insight as to what it might be for?

    One interesting observation…

    Locke came to the island in a casket, seemingly came back to life, and his corpse was still in the casket.
    Christian Shephard came to the island in a casket, seemingly came back to life, and his corpse was gone.

  • nepjuno1

    Call me crazy. Since Ben moved the island, I got the feeling that it was a spaceship. The stuff that I’ve seen this season just hardens that belief. The electromagnetism could have been a power source for it. The island is just formed on top of it.
    As far as locke/fred. I figure he assumed locke when he returned to the island. I think Jacob knew Freds intention. My Hurleys guitar case has a lot to do with whats comes next. I also wasn’t convince the bomb went off either. I do feel Juliette will be seen again. Unless Im missing something from an older ep. She has to have tea with rose and bernard. If this entire show is based on Jacobs and Freds relationship, i also think thats cool.

  • nepjuno1

    If you think about it. There were pivotal characters that Jacob didn’t visit also. That has to say something. I gotta watch the ep again. Theres stuff I had to miss.

  • http://www.simonvinkenoog.nl/beeld/Yogi%20-%20Annelies%20Rigter.jpg yogi

    @James, “things I liked”, “disliked”? Who are you Peter King? ;-)
    .
    I loved this finale, mainly I think because we got our Vincent sighting (as well as the huge amount of info with mainly game changers).

  • renewkir

    the woman in the (middle eastern?) hospital… Did Jacob call her Ana? Was that Ana Lucia? Or did he call her Ilana? I can find no record of Michelle Rodriguez appearing in the episode, and I don’t know why she would, but I could have sworn he said “Ana.” (It wasn’t Nadia, was it?)
    .
    @kespel the Omega Point sounds a lot like what was going on during the incident, what with the metal being drawn in to a central point, the bottom of the well.
    .
    @elkaba are you insinuating Juliet was at the bottom of the donkey-wheel well? Because they were at the Swan, not the Orchid. Of course, there’s no reason to believe the orchid is the only place on the island where one can “turn the wheel.”
    .
    I especially appreciated all the little nods to fans throughout the episode. I can imagine someone who’s never seen Lost wondering what the hell they just watched. But for us it was nice to get some perspective on Locke’s dad throwing him out the window, or to know that Sawyer wrote the Sawyer letter with Jacob’s pen.
    .
    With the idea that this has all happened before in mind, I wonder if that means this specific reality with these specific characters, or just in general, people come to the island, feud in the name of Jacob or Fred, kill each other, and the island waits for more inhabitants. I can see it being the other way, with these specific characters unknowingly stuck in a time loop for millenia while Jacob and Fred, bored out of their minds, have to watch it all play out over and over again.
    .
    Is Fredlocke still wearing Christian’s shoes?
    .
    Disappointed and confused about no Claire appearance.
    .
    I was also surprised we didn’t get to see who was on the ship. I assumed right away it was the Black Rock and Richard would be aboard. Although now knowing his name is Ricardus lends credence to the idea that he’s much, much older than a couple hundred years.
    .
    Oh hell, time to go back to the Pilot and just watch the Fred and Jacob show all over again, I suppose.

  • chriskw

    @James

    You are wrong about Locke giving Richard the compass. That was “PRE-RESURECTION” Locke. Remember, that happened while they were skipping through time just days after the Oceanic 6 left the island. Locke jumped to 2007 one he turned the wheel to stop the time jumping. Then he died shortly after.

    I was really upset by the ending of the episode. It’s like James said, things were done that the audience already had assumed were going to happen. They talked for three episodes about blowing up the H-Bomb and then they do it and…..nothing. A lot of the cast was hyping up the cliffhanger to be a bigger shocker than the Season 3 finale. Next time, I think the producers should tell them not to say things like that especially when it so far from the truth.

    Even the reveal that it wasn’t Locke wasn’t that big of a shocker. I kind of suspected that after the opening scene. Although, I don’t understand why there are two Locke bodies. I assumed that Fred possessed Locke’s dead body or something.

    I don’t really care if Jacob and this other guy are behind the entire story. I mean, I think lost has always given characters involved with the overall mythology less screen time. Charles Widmore, Eloise Hawking, Christian Shepherd and Richard are important to the mythology but all not really deeply drawn out characters themselves. And the producers have stated that they wanted to focus on the original cast as must as possible next season.

    It was an enjoyable finale but for me the best part was the very beginning. And that isn’t something I was to be saying about a Lost finale. A show known for putting out some of the finales out there.

    One more thing. I had always thought at the end of the series fiale the LOST title card that flahsed at the end of the episode would be turned inside out to black lettering on a white background. But they chose to do it in this finale.

  • jsox26

    Unless I’m missing something from a previous season on Richard’s history, maybe Richard = “Fred”. Since Richard looks different, maybe he isn’t Fred, but a character from where Jacob comes from. I’m still really confused over Richard’s character.

    Anyone else fascinated w/ the tombs and giant sculpture? Besides weather/time maybe the body gets blown off by the island reacting to the bomb (as it travels back in time or something)

  • shara says

    I really loved this episode! I thought that there was something more important going on than Jacob just visiting with Losties – he gave them things (lunchbox, pen, candy bar, a blessing, life) and touched them too. I couldn’t decide if the things themselves were important, or if they were just an excuse to touch the people, but it was like he was somehow marking them.

  • texgator

    How can no one have mentioned the most important line of the episode? Jacob’s last words are, “They are coming.” The question is who are “They”? Locke/Fred seems to think they are the SoTS people from Ajira 316. I don’t think so. I think “They” are Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Jin, Miles, and (possibly but by all appearances not likely) Sayid and Juliet. My guess is along the lines of what natego said…that Jacob has his own loophole. He has been the one who manipulated the 815 gang to end up on the island so they can take down Locke/Fred/Smokie (or whatever he is). Also don’t forget about Desmond. I think his ultimate return to the island will present some sort of wildcard that no one (Jacob and Fred included) is accounting for.
    .
    My own hail of bullets:
    -What was the significance of Bernard asking Juliet if she would like some tea? There seemed to be an underlying meaning to the exchange.
    -Are we going to see flashbacks to the post-Incident/pre-Purge era on the island to explain how Radzindky ended up in the Swan, how Chang ended up making the videos, and how Richard grew long hair and decided to talk Ben into killing off the remnants of Dharma? Or are we done with the 70′s/80′s and back in the present full time until the end?
    -Is there any signifance to the guitar case or is it just a red herring and this is a case of ultra-superstitious Hurley thinking that the mysterious guy-who-told-him-to-go-back-to-the-island left it for him to take back?
    .
    It’s going to be a looooong 8 months…

  • thalasseri

    Amazing mix of background tapestry (seasons 1-5 now set against an overarching, ageless, sibling?, rivalry), nods to a loyal audience (Bernard and Rose and Vincent, with what looked like a curtain call),
    lots of helter-skelter action, and some touches of satire or perhaps unintended comedy (forget about 24′s “suitcase nukes” – Lost has backpack thermo-nukes! made in the 1950s, to boot!)

    I read the comments to James’s pre-episode post before seeing the finale last night; while watching, I chuckled when I saw the writers anticipate the need to show Vincent again, and even the need to cause the nuke to detonate by means of hammering with a really-really-big (ok, small) rock.

    @matt: Esau’s a nice touch :-)

    @renewkir: I had the same thought that you expressed so well:
    “these specific characters unknowingly stuck in a time loop for millenia while Jacob and Fred, bored out of their minds, have to watch it all play out over and over again”. That could align with the H-bomb finally changing the time loop – was this part of Fred/Esau’s loophole, or part of Jacob’s own counter-loophole?

    Talking about being bored out of their mind – Jacob weaving his Egyptian tapestry, strand by strand, over the centuries, was an interesting touch. Ilana pulled a piece of cloth out of the wall of “Jacob/Esau?”‘s cabin that looked like a piece of Jacob’s weaving.

    Lots to think about … Was Esau imprisoned in the cabin by Jacob, and escape through some action, by Ben, say? If Widmore wanted Locke to go back to the island to fight on the right side of the war, does that put Widmore on Esau’s side? … Richard says something to the effect that he was never impressed by Locke’s specialness – was that an acknowledgement of Esau’s manipulations causing “Locke” to become the leader? Is there some compact between Jacob and his island Others – where Jacob can be killed only by someone he had chosen as an Other leader?

    @renewkir: Again, I’m with you all the way on your comment:
    “Oh hell, time to go back to the Pilot and just watch the Fred and Jacob show all over again, I suppose.”

  • walle1

    The thing that struck me was that Richard didn’t see any of them die, so either they managed to change the time line or next season they’ll still be in the 70, which would be kinda strange seeing how they where at ground zero of a nuclear bomb and/or the incident.

  • James Poniewozik

    @chriskw: Oh, right, thanks for the timeline fix. Correcting.

  • James Poniewozik

    @walle1: “The thing that struck me was that Richard didn’t see any of them die.” Very good point. What could he have seen instead? Maybe he witnessed a cataclysmic explosion, which he could only assume would have killed them—except that they were no longer there because of the change of events that the explosion effected. Or maybe not—it is a big shoe waiting to drop, anyway.

  • l0stfan

    this may be too obvious? that jacob is good (god) and fred/esau is evil (satan)? jacob referred a number of times to “always having a choice.” seems to be tie into the free will given to us by god. just a thought…

  • Matt

    @ texgator – I don’t think we need to see how Radzinsky was in the Swan, Chang made the videos, etc. We’ve already seen through the videos themselves what the DI thought happened and why they did the things that they did (well, most of them, at least). But going back and seeing the day after the incident from the DI perspective… well, it’s not interesting in the scope of the larger story. Which now seems to be some crazy good vs. evil war.
    .
    @ James & chriskw – hate to do this, but Locke 1.0 got the compass from 2007 Richard, who was told to give it to him by Locke 2.0/Fred/Esau. Same thing goes for the “you’re going to have to die, John.” Likewise, when Christian tells Locke at the frozen donkey wheel that he’s going to have to die, it’s because – I think – Christian is really Fred/Esau/smokey(?)

  • chriskw

    I just had a thought on why Fred appears as Locke but doesn’t actually possess Locke’s original body. Maybe he is a manifestation of the Smoke Monster and Fred himself is the Smoke Monster. Remember, we didn’t see Locke and Smokey together in the episode “Dead is Dead.” It didn’t show up at the barracks while Ben and Locke(Fred) were waiting for it. And Alex (Smokey/Fred) told Ben to do whatever Locke told him to do.

    Maybe the loophole was to get everyone to put their unquestioning faith into Locke based on the lie that he was Resurrected. And that only the Leader of the Others can kill Jacob. And that Ben was still technically the Leader because Locke was dead. Fred being the smoke monster would also explain why he has all of Locke’s memories.

    This plan could have began back in season 1 when the smoke monster tried to take Locke down to its temple. And I think it is safe to say that Christian was speaking for Fred not Jacob. And that this plan to present himself as a resurrected version of the new Others leader began a long time ago.

    I forgot to mention earlier about how underwhelming Jacob’s death was. Clearly he has been around for a long time and can leave the island at will. So how can stabbing him kill him. Or as I said before, maybe the Leader can kill him in any way. But Jacob would know that so why didn’t he defend himself. Unless, as others have pointed out, he has his own plan.

  • James Poniewozik

    @Matt: OK, I’m going to uncorrect my correction, thx. Clearly I’m too drowsy to assess, or reassess, timelines. But god to know I sort of got it right the first time, if only accidentally.

  • Kemper

    My first thought after the bomb was dropped and failed to go off and then everything went crazy magnetic was: “Yep, this was certainly a Jack Shephard plan. FAIL!”
    .
    So many questions, so few episodes. I agree with James P. on almost everything except the Juliet thing. Yes, I thought it was a stretch that she survived the fall. But any time a season finale ends with a major character banging on a nuclear weapon and cursing it, well, that’s just good television…
    .
    Biggest questions to me:
    * So is WHH happened still in place or did Juliet change things? Will the last season start with everyone still on the island saying ‘What happened?’ or does it start with 815 landing in LAX?
    .
    * Do Juliet and Desmond now have a lot in common? (Or assuming that things did change, is Desmond ordinary now since he never had to shut down the Swan. This time travel stuff is hurting my brain.) Does the fact that Jacob did NOT visit Juliet have something to do with why she was able to break WHH (maybe) and detonate the bomb?
    .
    Is John Locke indeed the biggest sucker on the on planet? Because it’s looking like his whole ‘special destiny’ thing was Fred’s scheme all along to set up the murder of Jacob. And resulted in faux-Locke instructing Richard to tell real-Locke to bring the others back to the island. Since those instructioins came from the (supposedly) bad guy, then why did Jacob help by talking Hurley into coming back, too?

  • Matt

    @Kemper – in regards to Juliet being Desmond-esque, I think that’ll depend on whether or not they changed the future. If they did, I think she will be. If they didn’t, she’ll be dead. (And the meta-perspective will be how busy Elizabeth Mitchell is with her new show).
    .
    As far as Jacob seeming to help with Fred/Esau’s plot by getting helping Locke and Hurley to the Island, again, there are two answers. One is that off-Island Jacob is actually Fred/Esau (but why he would need to take his enemy’s form…). But that’s dumb. The real reason, I think, is hubris. Jacob and Fred/Esau are good & evil, white & black. And evil, as we know from the reams of pop culture cited in this show, always over-reaches.
    .
    Sure, Locke was taken advantage of by Fred/Esau, but in the process, he set in motion a lot of things that I think in the endgame will work out for Jacob (who I doubt is “dead”). For example, in discovering/obsessing with the Hatch, Locke brought about the Desmond “wild card”. There are loads of others, which can pretty much be simplified as everything that happened in their lives (for good or ill) will build up to this one point. It’s very HIMYM-esque.

  • natego

    @James “But god to know I…” Freudian slip?
    .
    All this talk of good v. evil got me thinking.. what if neither sides are good and they’re both just self-centered entities looking out for #1.
    .
    @texgator. Thanks for the shout out.. and in turn, I agree with you per my original post. The question by Bernard about tea seemed significant..but not sure why.
    .
    One thing I was realizing. I absolutely LOVED the Bernard/Rose scene. Particularly because of my interest in buddhism. I love how Bernard and Rose are so present and at peace with what ever is. They let things be as they are and accept it fully (“If we die, we die”). It also shines an embarrassing light on the rest of the characters for being so caught up in the drama of their lives, always trying to change people/things/circumstances because they can’t fully accept what is.

  • Chaddogg

    While Season 3′s ending will always have a special place in my heart and might even be better, last night’s “white-out” (a somewhat intentional wink at the Soprano’s controversial “black-out”?) finish to Season 5 might be even better. I mean, there is literally an infinite number of directions we could go — the 1970s Losties died but changed the past; the 1970s Losties died but didn’t change the past but instead caused the Incident; no one died, the Incident happened, and they’re still stuck; Juliet and Sayid died, but no one else, and the living are warped to the future; Rose and Bernard are Jacob’s parents…..I mean, ANYTHING could happen. It is almost a perfect set-up for the final season and ending to the penultimate season: the show is a blank (white) slate, and we can all speculate ourselves to death for the next 8 months. By the way, if you like the Doc Jensen Lost-mirror theory, Season 5 ended like Season 2 (with a flash of light), and set up Season 6 to start like Season 1 did (which is to say, it can start any way it wants).
    .
    A few thoughts (surely to be followed by more throughout the day):
    .
    1. @James — Jacob’s trip back (forward?) to see young Kate DID have a deep purpose: he told her “you’re never going to steal again, are you?” Which plays into her and Aaron, her feelings of guilt over leaving Claire behind, and ultimately her decision to give Aaron to his rightful grandmother and return to the Island to retrieve Claire (who I was somewhat surprised to find MIA from this episode — does anyone else think Jacob has bigger plans for her?). Jack’s conversation with her about her motivations for coming back was, I think, a nod to Jacob’s influence on her: he “taught” her that stealing was wrong, which ultimately got her back to the island in the 1970s.
    .
    2. Actually, all of Jacob’s conversations were rife with significance. He gave Jack the Apollo bar and told him “Sometimes we just need a push” or something like that — planting the idea that a push (or thermonuclear bomb) can change things (time)? He gave Sawyer his pen — a prod to Sawyer to follow his heart/feelings (which might not be great advice, as conflicted as Sawyer may be between Juliet and Kate, but if his feelings are for Kate, its what got all of them to join Jack on the bombing mission, since those feelings led to Juliet’s change of heart)? Or more directly, since Sawyer kills Locke’s dad, the push that gets Sawyer to eventually aid Locke in becoming the Others’ leader (and thus capable of “killing” Jacob)? He told Sun and Jin to keep ahold of their love, and something I’m forgetting about staying close to each other (have faith that a 30 year distance between them can be crossed)? He pulled Sayid out of traffic — in order to set Sayid off on his vengeance kick with Ben, which ultimately leads Sayid to shoot Ben the kid, which leads to Ben becoming so twisted and conflicted that Ben eventually “kills” Jacob? And he tells Hurley that “we always have a choice” and gives him the still cryptic guitar case…..something tells me Hurley will be playing a HUGE role next year (no pun intended) — perhaps being the one who makes the “choice” to change and make “progress” per Jacob and Esau/Fred’s conversation?
    .
    3. Everyone in my apartment collectively held our breath for about 2 minutes in silence after Juliet fell down the mine shaft — maybe the most emotional moment in Lost’s history, or a close second to Charlie’s poignant death….incredible work by Elizabeth Mitchell and Josh Holloway.
    .
    More in a minute…

  • http://www.rentvine.com drumat5280

    What was up with the one-arm Spock move that Juliet did to the submarine guy? Is there more to her past we don’t know about?

  • natego

    @chaddog.. Re: Juliet/Sawyer scene. I completely agree. This was the first time in my opinion that I was impressed greatly with Elizabeth Mitchell’s performance and actually thought it was Holloway’s highest point in the whole show performance wise as well.

  • archstanton68

    Is it me, or is Doc Jensen’s “mirror” theory looking better all the time. This was the season 2 finale all over again, from a dubious character claiming to be the good guys (to a hostage) to another incident at the Swan.
    .
    I can’t help but think that what we know about Desmond is now extremely important. If his experience at the end of season 2 is what made him special, will the same thing happen to the group who was at the Swan during the incident? It really seems like we’re heading towards a return to the Oceanic 815 crash, only with a group that is fully aware of what happened in the previous iteration of the timeline.

  • James Poniewozik

    Couple additional thoughts/questions:
    .
    1. So Fred/Esau (maybe we should just go with Esau?) needed Locke to become the leader in order to execute his “loophole.” But why did he need Locke’s BODY to return? Is it that Fred can only assume the form of a person whose body is present (and hence he was also Christian’s ghost… and Eko’s brother?). And–like Miles–he has access to that person’s memories as well?
    .
    2. I am going to miss Juliet fiercely, and feel bad I didn’t write more about that. Fantastic scene. But… if her setting off the bomb did change the flow of history, do we even know she’s dead? Hell, for that matter, who’s to say that A SECOND LIVE LOCKE will, in this revised timeline, survive to instead crash-land, in 2007, on Ajira 316 with the other Oceanic originals? Who knows if anything we’ve seen “happened” now–anything in this finale or in all five seasons? Oy.

  • James Poniewozik

    And one more: Unlike the season 4 finale, this one sets up a LOT of Lost Discussion Group questions for this summer. [Rub hands together.]

  • natego

    I saw a great observation on another board.. When hurley is released from jail the officer at the desk gave him everything jacob gave/done for everyone. Hurley was givin a pen,money, and candy. Jacob gave jack the candy bar,paid for kates lunch box,and gave james the pen…
    .
    Now who has a theory????

  • shara says

    BTW, a couple sidenotes on the whole mirror theory – I rewatched the S2 finale right before this episode came on, and (to me anyway) that whole moment with Rose & Bernard and Kate-Sawyer-Julie (JuliSawKat?) about bring with the one you love echoed strongly of that heartbreaking moment in the S2Finale when Desmond opened his book and found the letter from Penny that said “all we need is one person who truly loves us, and you have that, I will wait for you forever”. (There were also competing groups, one with explosives, debating on the extent to which they would be threatened by a potential massive release of the energy beneath the Swan in both finales). And Juliet and Sawyer’s painful parting, with her smashing the bomb (after realizing that she and Sawyer did, indeed, have a strong love) really did put me in mind of Desmond turning the failsafe key when all he11 was breaking lose in the Hatch (holding his love for Penny in his heart while doing so).

  • Chaddogg

    4. Redemption. Free will. Progress. Choice. These are the big themes in Lost, in many ways, and the idea that just because we make mistakes does not mean we are forever defined by them. Kate has run before, but she doesn’t have to run forever. Kate has stolen before, and in some ways “stole” Aaron, but as Jacob told her, “you’re not going to steal again” — and ultimately, she repented and didn’t. Sayid has killed and tortured, but can also escape that path — he doesn’t or hasn’t yet, but he can. Sawyer had defined himself as a con man, but ultimately (whether with getting the money to Clementine while in prison, or by settling down to domesticity with Juliet in the 1970s) had some redemption for lies and lived “honestly.”
    .
    Now we have Jacob and Esau — one dressed in white on the beach, one in dark/black clothing. Esau convinced its always the same – “they come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same way.” Jacob taking the bigger picture idea and choosing the theory of redemption — “Until it ends, everything else is progress.” (Sorry for my bad quoting). With the Island as allegory/setting for human conflict, the Losties story so far is EXACTLY that battle — can they escape “sin” or their pasts or their daddy issues, and find redemption? An amazingly deep and rich drama just got that much deeper and richer….
    .
    5. Loved Jacob reading “Everything That Rises Must Converge.” I know many have looked to deeper themes into why he was reading that book — I just took it as a meta-comment/joke on Locke. Everything that Rises Must Converge = “what goes up, must come down” roughly. And Locke certainly comes down. But maybe the book has deeper meaning — the “statue” rose up, and ultimately came down. Dharma had its time on the island, and ultimately was wiped out. Jacob existed, but ultimately was “brought down” last night by Ben. Oceanic 815 went up, only to “converge” on the Island. And we’ve seen thousands of times how the lives of the Losties off-island prior to getting on the plane “converged” as they were “rising” on their own paths.
    .
    6. Bernard and Rose — the payoff was worth it. And, while the show will be a little less if they’re gone, if that was their “goodbye,” it was an excellent one. Some have noted it here, but for a show involved in some ways with religious themes and faith and even SPECIFIC faiths (Egyptian gods, Sayid’s Islam, Eko’s Christianity, Charlie’s Christianity, etc.) it was nice to have Bernard and Rose embrace a somewhat Buddhist retirement — if they die, they die. Want some tea? They truly were living the dream — retirement together on a beautiful tropical island.
    .
    7. The music — every time the “Exodus” theme plays (with Losties or Others or whoever travelling across the island) I love it. Its sometimes the little things with Lost, and you sometimes forget how incredibly important the music is on Lost. Don’t believe me? See Sepinwall’s discussion (and James’ comment) on ABC’s “goofy” music on other shows and how distracting it is….
    .
    (I still probably have more….days after Lost finales should be holidays for me from work….)

  • shara says

    @natego – good catch!!! I hadn’t noticed that at all.

  • Matt

    @natego – ha! (I assume it’s a joke now, watch it be true next year…)
    .
    @shara – and that’s exactly why I think Juliet, assuming EM comes back, will be like Desmond (especially if the “Lost Curse” holds up and Henry Ian Cusick’s legal troubles get in the way).

  • natego

    @Chad. Thanks for mentioning the music. Mr. Giacchino is a truly gifted composer!

  • profdante

    Great episode, soooo frustrated at the lack of payoff at the end, but I understand why it was done that way. Loved that we got to see so much of Jacob, although my head hurts trying to figure out who’s on what side or even how many sides there are. Loved Rose Bernard Vincent. Hated that the climactic events were being driven by the freakin’ quadrangle. Really?
    .
    So clearly, the Incident (by which I mean the electromagnetic suckage) happened independently of the bomb. But I’m guessing that the bomb went off anyway, since that would explain a) why the writers had to maneuver critical people to be in close proximity to the bomb and maneuver certain other people (e.g., Radzinsky, Chang) away and b) why the Swan had a radiation quarantine protocol.
    .
    My assumption going into next season is that the bomb goes off, those closest to it are not exploded, but are instead hurled through time, reuniting everyone in the same time frame (finally!). There might still be some time jumps to come, though, right? E.g., I was reminded about that scene during the time flashes when Sawyer and Co. were being shot at on the outriggers, and that this was in the future right? (e.g., Ajira bottles). So that has to be part of next season, I suppose.

  • Chaddogg

    @James — here’s my big question, and one impossible to answer, I suppose, without spoilers: who is “dead”? Or maybe I should say, did we see anyone’s last episode last night?
    .
    I for one will be incredibly heart-broken (in a good way, since it served the narrative) if we never see Juliet again (again, Elizabeth Mitchell is an incredibly talented actress — what a performance last night). I also personally think Sayid deserves more….well, redemption.
    .
    @archstanton69 — if Doc Jensen has nailed the mirror theory, I think we know the Season 6 opener, don’t we? Jack, awaking in the jungle in a suit for (now) the THIRD time, and coming upon a plane crash….this time, with maybe some different passengers?

  • Matt

    @Chaddogg, Sayid doesn’t deserve redemption. Just like Eko embraced his nature and had nothing to repent, I think Sayid reached that same point when he shot lil’ Ben. He was very nihilistic about the whole bomb thing last night. If he’s dead, I certainly want there to be an “official” send off, but I don’t think he needs to be alive any longer (which is not to say I’ll be disappointed if he is).

  • Tom Shaw

    So Jacob’s enemy is whom? Esau? Magnus Hanso? Ponce de Leon?
    -
    Is it time to revive the White vs. Black smokey discussion?
    -
    I’m okay with all of Christian 2.0 & Locke 2.0 (& probably Alex 2.0) being Esau. As I mentioned in season 4, some of Christian 2.0′s acts clearly didn’t track with him being on the side of Jacob/The Island. Finding out that pretty much everything after Ben turning the wheel was a ruse by Esau to get Locke’s body/image (Eidolon? My Greek is weak.) actually tracks pretty well.
    -
    “They are coming” clearly does not refer to the Jacobites/Others, but (probably) the return of Dharma. Interesting that whatever the Jacob/Esau disagreement is, they both dislike Dharma (or whomever).
    -
    Which makes Jacob’s acts all the more confusing. It’s one thing that he has picked the Losties to be part of his chosen, but the timing is odd, especially with the post-O6 pre-Ajira contacts. Is he just a proponent of WHH, even at the known cost of his own “life”? Or does he believe the only way to hold off Dharma is in the other timeline? I suppose this too will have to wait until Season 6.
    -
    Agreed, the Juliet thing was weak. Throwing in the unconnected flashback just to give her a reason to break up with Sawyer before Kate did it herself was just D-level effort.
    -
    What was Ilana’s hospital language? Bosnian?
    -
    And speaking of things happening again, is there any level of Island history that doesn’t have a civil war going? Jacob vs. Esau, Widmore vs. Ben, Jack vs. Locke. (And if the Lost Experience is still canon, Mittlewerk vs. Hanso.) Although civil wars are nothing new…
    -
    Fun fact: A more accurate translation of the Book of Revelation’s Four Horsemen is actually Civil War, External Conquest, Famine, & Disease. Yes, civil wars were common enough back then that they got separate billing from run of the mill wars between countries/cities/tribes.
    Related fun fact 2: You’ll notice I didn’t mention Death. That’s because not only was Death not part of the lineup, there isn’t even a pale horse – it is described as khloros, as in (green) chlorine gas. Every cultural reference to Death riding a pale horse is just the repetition of a bad translation that’s been going on for millenia. Remember that real life bit when you consider how reasonable it is that “Locke as leader” is just the right repetition of bad info into the right ears.

  • profdante

    Other random thoughts: Is it too obvious that Rose & Bernard might be Adam & Eve? I saw Sayid’s impending death coming from a mile away, and I only hope that next season that they give Naveen Andrews his proper sendoff, if indeed Sayid does die. At this point, it would make sense given how little left there is to Sayid’s story and motivations. Poor Sun, all she’s had to do was stand around a look confused. It was nice to see her and Jin together and looking beautiful at their wedding. Yes, Phil got speared! I wonder if Jacob went back and touched the other people we didn’t see — e.g., Boone, Claire, Michael, Ana-Lucia? It bothers me that he visited Sayid and Hurley after their return from the island, but Kate and Sawyer as children. Why? Okay too many thoughts.

  • Tom Shaw

    For those of you that don’t know: Juliet’s survival depends on.. whether the pilot for V gets picked up (she apparently has the lead role).
    -
    And yes, given the mirror theory, that this finale answered nothing, like season one’s, and left us with a giant what-comes-next? mystery (hatch vs. nuke), was running through my head the whole time.

  • Dave

    First and foremost, I loved the episode. I loved everything about it. Even the things I probably normally wouldn’t like, I loved, because the entire face of the series has changed. Now we can go through the entire series again with a genuinely fresh look at everything.
    `
    I have boatloads of thoughts, but seeing as how this is the last LDG of season 5, I’m going to try to take it slow and not lose the moment too quickly :)
    `
    One thought: I’m wary of calling Fred Esau. It’s been a while since I’ve gone through the story, but I was under the impression that Esau mellowed out and, eventually, didn’t want to kill Jacob. Jacob wrestled with God, then when he finally went back and saw Esau, they embraced instead of fighting.
    `
    I see it more as a Jesus/Lucifer thing. Lucifer was an angel before and would have had opportunity to talk to Christ in heaven. He probably thought he found a loophole when he killed Jesus on the cross. Jesus knew what was going on and still went to the cross. Jacob knew Ben was going to stab him, and he still stepped right up to him and didn’t act to save himself.

  • archstanton68

    One other note: I’ve read some (semi-joking) speculation elsewhere that Vincent was the one controlling things, or was Jacob. I about choked when they showed the picture of a dog inside the cabin. That had to have been intentional.

  • Dave

    I’m wondering if Esau had, for the lack of a better word, infiltrated or tainted the Others. “God loves you as He loved Jacob.” God doesn’t love Jacob any more?
    `
    There are SO many weird things that are so hard to place, now that there seem to be two Jacobian beings at war. The Room 23 video has some freaky stuff. Walt being special (and all the bird stuff). The Aaron warning from the psychic. Child Locke drawing Smokey. All the different dead people and things (was Ana Lucia coming from Jacob or from the Island when she told Hurley what to do?). Widmore and Ben fighting over the Island. Anything about Desmond. The Black Rock. The Hansos and the DI. Oh yeah, the giant freaking statue! :)
    `
    I don’t know if I’m going to love this off-season, watching everything in a new light, or if I’m going to hate it, because ultimately, there are so many questions that we just don’t have enough clues on. Yargh.

  • Matt

    @ Dave – That thing about Jacob & Esau embracing… that sounds like a killer series finale (whether metaphorical or literal). Think about it – these guys go through years (eternity?) bringing people to this mystical Island to watch what happens. They’re enemies. But maybe through Jacob’s machinations – and machinations can certainly be seen in the Biblical account – or some outside force (Desmond?) they reconcile. I know you were trying to refute it, but now I’m more convinced!

  • Dave

    @Matt – Well, Jacob isn’t really a good Jacob figure. I mean, Jacob of the OT ran away from his problems until he wrestled with God, then reconciled with his brothers and had a dozen kids (how’s THAT for Biblical Cliff’s notes?). He really seems to be more of a Christ figure, all powerful, recruiting disciples and molding their path, then stepping in to sacrifice to save everyone.
    `
    I’m guessing that next season, we’re going to see little flashes of Jacob for most of the season. Small enough that it’ll be a point of contention as to whether it’s really him.

  • madmatt86

    Looks like this is all about the good ol’ good vs evil, of course with evil not being purely evil. For example, Fred wants to stop the fighting which the “good” Jacob sees as a necessary “evil” for progress. But Fred still fits that devil-like picture of the trickster demon, always scheming, always hiding and always acting in disguise.
    .
    Two things I noticed in this episode:
    1. The blast from the bomb is what damages the statue. I mean everything else can be rebuild and regrown, it’s the island after all. But not the statue.
    2. If Miles can get all the information from dead bodies, so can Fred. It’s how he used Locke’s pre-death knowledge.

  • natego

    So, im still curious about this.. No one thinks Jacob could still be a grown Aaron??

  • shara says

    @natego – I’m just not seeing a Jacob/Aaron connection.
    .
    If it is Esau who has been taking the forms of the dead folks, then does that mean that Esau (in Christian’s form) has got Claire?

  • macevangelist

    My guess ist that the Statue is the god Sobek, with a crocodile head.

  • Rorschach

    Jacob ‘set’ many of the main characters in place when he visited them. ‘Locked in’ their timelines, or fate, or whatnot. But he didn’t lock in Juliet, and she may end up being an unaccounted for variable in setting off the nuke. Don’t know whether that ends up favoring Jacob or not.

  • ipfletch

    I suspected what was in the box (really, what else could it have been? Guns?), but when Locke put the pressure on Ben to kill Jacob, that was a dead giveaway that it wasn’t Locke doing the talking. Not that he hadn’t gotten someone to kill for him before (James vs. Sawyer), but the things he was saying to Ben to persuade him were calculated and manipulative…and mean. This was not any version of Locke I knew of. Coupled with the first scene of the episode (awesome to see Titus Welliver getting into this now- that guy’s terrific), it started to make sense. With regards to Ilana stating that Jacob hadn’t been in the house for a long time, it’s a safe bet that Locke (and as a result, Ben) have been getting played for a LONG time now. I’m really hoping Locke’s not left in the bad guy column for the final season as well- the guy deserves better resolution than this.
    I’m wondering about Bernard’s tea offer as well- for some reason, “Alice In Wonderland” is popping into my head in conjunction with this; am I totally off-base? Is it possible that Bernard & Rose are now more involved than we’d expect? Gotta admit, they seem pretty Zen about things right now, which (I think) is kinda suspicious.
    Yes indeed, a LONG 8 months……

  • Dave

    Isn’t it ironic that the Great Manipulator (Ben) ends up getting manipulated to kill Jacob?

  • Matt

    @madmatt – I’m pretty sure the statue wasn’t around in the 1970s. Ben said it was knocked down by the time he got to the Island. And even applying the Ben rule, you’d think one of the Left-Behinds would have mentioned something.

  • Dave

    @madmatt and Matt – also keep in mind that, if the statue had fallen sometime recently, there would be some rubble somewhere. That’s a LOT of stone to get covered up over 30 years :)

  • Stiles

    I really thought, in contrast to what I had recently read from some critics about the balance of Season 5, that the finale really re-embraced some of the “big themes” Lost has played with during its run. I also thought that they were again back to The Stand (which King has described as “a long tale of dark Christianity”).
    .
    Most obvious and powerful example was when Ben Linus sounded very much like Job in detailing his struggles with his faith in the island, and when Jacob answered very much like Old Testament God.
    .
    “What about ME?”
    “What ABOUT you?”
    .
    Fantastic stuff.
    .
    As for the plot… I think that we just saw WHH… the 70s crew’s destiny was to crash 815, not save it. Though I expect that Jacob’s
    they are coming!” alludes to the survivors somehow making it back to 2007(?) as a result of The Incident.

  • captbaka

    OH! I don’t think anyone has mentioned this. When Jacob and Esau are having their scene at the beginning, Jacob eats fish, but Esau says he just ate.
    .
    I feel like there is a future “aha!” moment there.
    Perhaps he just killed off the last players in their previous game as the smoke monster…?
    .
    I feel like Esau is forced into this game by Jacob, who keeps bringing new players back. Esau wants to kill Jacob to finally bring an end to their game.

  • lbralla

    2 minor points that might have already been mentioned:
    1) In the Jacob/Fred scene Fred says “You know I would really like to kill you right now” or something to that extent. So can Fred NOT kill Jacob. Some how he doesnt have that power and why he has to get someone else to do it. Not sure if it has to be the leader of the other.
    2) Last time we saw Claire she was with Christian/Fred. What significance does that have, if any? And Claire did appear to Kate, albeit in a dream…

    That’s all. All my other theories have been covered in the first 20+ comments.

  • Dave

    @captbaka – Maybe Esau sees it as the two of them playing the same game over and over, while Jacob understands it as all parts of the larger game leading up to the end.
    `
    Here’s a question: how would we, as fans, react if Lost took the BSG route and ended it with a VERY heavy dose of mythology/religion? Obviously whatever they do, I hope they do it well, but if they used mythology/religion as an out on a lot of the show’s explanations in the end, I think it’d be hard to pull off without it being cheesy.

  • maybelogic

    Teilhard de Chardin was a Jesuit priest and scientist who thought about stuff like… oh, the nature of humankind and its potential and about seeing the connections between the universal and the particular. Spirituality and science, to Chardin, were not incompatible, but part of the same evolving process. He believed consciousness is evolutionary and emergent, and our ability to be aware of consciousness-to be aware that we are aware–affords us a unique freedom and responsibility to evaluate our motives and our actions. We can and must choose between thoughtlessness, violence and destruction, or compassion, benevolence and love. Metaphysical questions can’t be separated from moral questions since how we conceive the nature of the universe and our place in it both reflects and activates our moral systems: “the test of a metaphysics is the moral system which is derived from it.” He saw the network before the network was cool, and believed humanity will be compelled to “unite in some form of human whole organized on the bases of human solidarity.” Live together, die alone.

    “As Jacob said awakening from his dream, the world, this palpable world, which we were wont to treat with the boredom and disrespect with which we habitually regard places with no sacred association for us, is in truth a holy place, and we did not know it.” -The Divine Milieu

    (Re: Jacob/Esau–see Osiris/Horus and Set; Sakra & the Trayastrimsa devas and the Asuras; Angra Mainyu and Ahura Mazda, etc., etc.)

  • Chaddogg

    I’m going to throw a screeching halt on the Christian=Fred/Esau theory. In fact, count me in the other camp: Jacob is working with/thru Christian.
    .
    Christian is with Claire, or at least pulled her out of the craziness of this season, and separated her from Aaron. And he’s also the first to tell Locke in the well that he’s going to have to die. Now one could reasonably assume he did that as/at the orders of Fred/Esau….
    .
    But I think the opposite is true. Fred/Esau thinks he’s winning — he has Locke’s body, and uses the Judas-like Ben to “kill” Jacob. But Jacob, all along, has been moving his own pieces: touching the 1970s Lost crew (literally touching them), putting them on their paths, etc. But also he’s used Christian Shepard (homonym in meaning for Christ?) or Christian’s spirit/body to push Jack back to the island, spare Claire from the “danger” of going back in time (and whisked her to god knows where) and separate Aaron from his mother/the Island.
    .
    What if, to extend our Christ-like parallels, Aaron=Jacob, reborn/resurrected? And Christian’s actions (at the direction of Jacob) were actually preserving Jacob’s ultimate triumph over Esau/Fred?
    .
    That would add a WHOLE OTHER layer on to Jacob’s “dying” words: “They’re coming.” Notice how mad bizarro-Locke/Fred/Esau gets at hearing that — he kicks Jacob into the fire. He KNOWS he’s been defeated — but why? Is the “They” that are coming the 1970s Losties? Perhaps (and they certainly play some role in it all). But what if “they” is also/additionally Claire and Aaron, the resurrected Jacob, triumph over “death”?
    .
    In short, I wouldn’t count on Christian being in league with Fred/Esau

  • madmatt86

    What makes me doubt that Fred is/acted through Christian is that usually whenever Christian appeared he was gentle and unthreatening. Like when he released Michael. That seems more like Jacob, who sees fighting and death as necessary.
    On the other hand using dead people and taking their form is more like Fred. Well, the last season will finally have to give a higher answer/question ratio.

  • Chaddogg

    I should note a flaw in my own “Christian’s with Jacob” theory: if Christian “took” Claire, and then warned Kate not to bring “him” (presumably but not definitely Aaron) back to the island, then its possible (if Aaron is reincarnated/resurrected Jacob) that Fred/Esau working thru Christian thru Claire was trying to prevent Aaron/resurrected Jacob from happening…
    .
    My head hurts…what a show.

  • crockd

    A few things to consider:

    Does this mean all of the hallucinations we have seen throughout the series have been Esau? For example Walt and Kate’s horse.

    It is interesting that when Jacob gives Jack the Apollo bar he says it just needed a little push, paraphrasing what Christian says to Locke under the orchid.

    Just before Eko dies he is asked by his brother/smokey “Who do you think I am?” Essentially taunted before his death and the first major example of a character being betrayed by a sense of destiny.

    The Jacoc/Esau feud seems to be played out by every leader of The Others.

    Every leader of The Others that we have seen so far has been forced to kill or be an accessory to killing a member of their family. Eloise/Widmore – Daniel Faraday, Ben Linus – His Father and adopted daughter, John Locke – His Father.

    This leads me to my last point. The leader of The Others seems to have some sort of polar opposite who opposes them for power. Widmore has Ben, Ben has Locke and Locke has/had…dare I say it, Jack (Man of Science, Man of Faith). It seems like Jack is on a crash course to find his destiny as The Others leader in waiting, but the questions is, will he take it, or will he discover the old Jack before he becomes another Pawn.

    Or as is normally the case with Lost, will they go a completely different direction.

  • Matt

    @crockd – I really dig the polar opposite theory/analysis. There needs to be balance, Yin AND Yang, and all that jazz.
    .
    @Chad – What if they’re BOTH using Christian? It’s confusing as all hell, but the more I think back over his appearances (especially the final Missing Pieces episode), the more I’m struck by, as others have noted, the big difference between “Christian’s” actions this season versus earlier ones.

  • bankerman61

    Great episode!
    .
    Comments I haven’t seen made:
    .
    Ben’s diatribe about Jacob’s mistreatment of him. He compares Locke to Moses whom Jacob summons. Playing into the whole Egyptian theme, that would make Jacob Pharoah to Locke’s Moses. We assume that the Locke manifestation (Esau?) is evil, but what if Jacob is the evil one? Jacob is the one who keeps bringing outsiders to the island. Jacob is the one who visits (tempts?) the Losties. What if Esau is the good diety and Jacob the evil diety?
    .
    This would also fit in with the Locke as Savior concept. Moses was a form of Christ, saving his people from Egypt.
    .
    Jacob and Esau were twins. Esau came first, then Jacob came out grasping Esau’s heal. The name Jacob means supplanter. Jacob stole Esau’s birthright and blessing; he was devious and deceptive. Names mean a TON in Lostworld:
    .
    John Locke–Philospher who provided the foundation for many our democratic American principles.
    Rousseau–(Crazy French woman Rousseau)Philospher influenced by Locke.
    David Hume (Desmond Hume)– Another philospher influenced by Locke.
    Linus (Ben Linus)- One of the three sons of Apollo, a Greek God. Linus was killed by his father according to one set of myths.
    Juliet–Starcossed lover. Did her setting off the nuke constitute the Lost version of her Shakespearian suicide pact?
    Sawyer–Tom Sawyer, con boy.
    .
    Absolutlely LOVED Sawyer’s expression when Juliet said she changed her mind!!!
    .
    I too noticed Juliet rubbing her gut at the end of the Rose/Bernard reunion. I told bankerwife that maybe she was pregnant.
    .
    Bankerwife got really tired of Jacobs visits to the Losties. Once she even flipped back to Idol. Never give up control of the remote!!!
    .
    When Locke & friends came upon the broken Foot statue I had a Planet of the Apes flashback, fully expecting Chuck Heston to jump out and yell “Damn them! Damn them all to hell! They blew it up!”.

  • nwm4ever

    Can I assume that the entire “Aaron=Jacob” theory is based on simple reincarnation, or could it have something to do with the island’s strange effect on women who are impregnated on the island?

  • Dave

    It may be a fun exercise to map out whenever Christian appears, what that precedes happening to the character, and whether that seems more Jacobian or Esauian.
    `
    Note that we’re assuming Jacob is the good guy. He might not be :)

  • natego

    @chaddog.. Thanks for “resurrecting” my theory that Aaron could still be Jacob. No one thought it slightly strange that Jacob was a fair skinned blond?

  • lovebulgakov

    Not sure if I buy the idea of Jacob’s friend/enemy as the bad guy. All I see is Jacob manipulating people to the island…just like Ben, Widmore, DI etc.

    Definitely glad to see Rose and Bernard. They represent what both Jacob and Fred/esau/other “Other” appear to want. They have progressed to their little place of happiness. They also want to be left alone away from the drama of the same old cycle. Juliet and Sawyer were almost there as well.

    Overall, I loved the finale, feel manipulated and confused and can’t wait to see where the final season takes us.

  • captbaka

    I LOVE the idea of Aaron as Jacob. (I hope I’m remembering this right, but) I remember a long time ago Claire being told that he must not be raised by anyone but her… but what would be the repercussions? We never really found out. That would be so cool if Aaron turned dark… or atleast into Jacob.

  • Matt

    Something Mo Ryan pointed out over at the Chicago Tribune: when Rose and Bernard were talking about love and spending the rest of their lives together and all that good stuff, apparently Sawyer steals a glance at Kate. So, I’m slightly more buying Juliet’s change of mind.

  • nepjuno1

    I think Sayid and Juliette will die. They were the only ones I didnt see jacob touch in their flashback. I think that is an important notion either way.

  • crockd

    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that–it’s just progress.” – Jacob

    I think this comment is very telling, epecially in context of the seemingly recurrent battle for power on the island. It seems that every group of people who make it to the island end up in some sort of a struggle for power. Every leader of the Others as I mentioned a few posts before seem to have a rival who challenges and eventually usurps their power only to have it done to them at a later date. Jacob however seems to know this, he seems to indicate that while it repeats…there will be an end…each iteration seems to bring the cycle closer to this end. I have to think that Jack’s destiny is to find a way to break the cycle and that the shows moral in the end is that people have free will and a choice, no matter what they’ve been told they are fated for.

  • rose83

    I’ve never posted about Lost before, so I’m new to this…
    .
    @natego, yes I can see a possible Aaron-Jacob connection, but I still think it’s unlikely. Aaron has to play in to this somehow…
    .
    I saw the Locke’s body thing immediately. But I’m still skeptical that Jacob is the “good” one. He is (apparently) allied with the SoTS people who, as Frank points out, don’t seem like the good guys.
    .
    About Juliet’s explanation for changing her mind: I think she was lying. When she was in the well she looked like she understood how much Sawyer loves her; I didn’t see any surprise from her there. And it’s weird she’s the only one who didn’t have a Jacob flashback. My theory is that when Jack and Sawyer were fighting she met Jacob, who somehow convinced her.

  • natego

    Everyone needs to remember Juliet wasn’t on Oceanic 815, so of course, her situation is not the same hence no visit from Jacob. It’s not that she’s not important, but her circumstances being on the island were completely independent of everyone else.
    .
    @crockd. That is certainly the question. Jacob certainly thinks the shows moral is regarding free will (“you always have a choice” to hurley), but it seems its only his view, not necessarily the view of the show itself. its one angle, but may not be the ultimate moral of the show.

  • Dave

    @rose83 – Welcome! You picked a great time to join in the the Lost discussion, since there’s SO much up in the air :) All thoughts are welcome, the crazier the better.
    `
    I remember thinking at the start of season 4 (that’s when I started watching) about what Ben said to Michael at the end of season 2: “We’re the good guys, Michael!” I thought, “What if, in the end, the Others really are the good guys?” Now I’m thinking more of the same: as confused and backwards as they may be with their methods, maybe they are all good guys, and Not-Locke/Esau/Fred is going to be the true villain. I just see this totally endearing image of Jacob and can’t imagine him as a bad guy (which means, naturally, that he must be a bad guy, right?). Except that we’ve already gone through the emotions of thinking that Jacob is a bad guy through various parts of the series. Then again, a lot of those questions of Jacob being malevolent were in weird actions taken by Christian, who we assumed was acting on Jacob’s behalf, but maybe that’s not really the case.
    `
    Man, this stuff is so messed up.

  • madmatt86

    Poor Ben, I just thought of how basically everything he does is evil, but with the best intentions of doing the right thing. Now my guess is that’s exactly why Jacob never spoke to Ben. He simply never made any mistakes, he never had to be scolded for doing anything wrong (like wanting to kill an innocent woman and her baby). He’s Jacob’s most loyal leader, he never asked any questions.
    Now imagine his face when somebody tells him that after killing Jacob.

  • jameslafleur

    I think the whole Jacob/Fred rivalry and the LOST story up to now has many similarities with the Book of Revelation, God and Satans final battle. Satan sends the Anti-Christ (perhaps Locke) to earth who rises to power, and comes to control the earth (the island). The Anti-Christ (Locke) then dies and Satan (Fred) comes to inhabit his body, seemingly a resurrection, demanding all to acknowledge him as God (the leader of the island). Another note, the Anti-Christ comes to control the earth by bringing peace to the entire world, which draws parallels to Fred wanting to end progress, thus end the fighting between humans. After Satan inhabits the Anti-Christs body the world is engulfed in a great war, far worse than any other in history. So if my theory is on point at all, I think there will be much more violence/fighting next season, and eventually culminating with Jacobs (God’s) return to defeat Fred. I know there is a lot left to explain with this theory but I think it has some validity.

  • http://memles.wordpress.com/2009/05/14/lost-in-the-incident-part-one-the-ramifications-of-jacob/ Lost in “The Incident” Part One: The Ramifications of Jacob « Cultural Learnings

    [...] James Poniewozik [...]

  • renewkir

    So I have given in to the idea that it was Ilana in the hospital. (I still think he said “Ana,” but Lostpedia says it was Ilana, so for now that’s that.) That seems like a particularly important scene. Is that the same hospital Locke was in near the Donkey Wheel’s exit point? If so, Ilana was probably a leader on the island sometime between the Incident and the Oceanic crash, and at some point turned the Wheel. Why she’s in such bad shape is another question. Also, Jacob asks her (in Russian) to help him — which is exactly what he said to Locke in the cabin. The SotSies obviously have a history with the island, but it appears they played a prominent role in one of the previous conflicts.

  • etbcoop

    Great writeup. I found the episode to be nothing short of AWESOME! I applaud the writers for the great work they have done on this show. Truly incredible. I would have paid $10 bucks to watch that season final episode in a movie theater as it was better than anything you will see at the movies. I just love the show and consider it one of the most remarkable acheivements in TV history!

    http://blog.entertainmenttodayandbeyond.com/

    chuck

  • dredbeast

    So I am not really an expert on mythology. But once I realized that Locke was this “Fred,” I wondered if he could be Loki. Loki was a shapeshifting Norse god of mischief. I looked it up, and Loki was also responsible for killing another Norse god named Balder. Apparently Balder was impervious to almost everything. But Loki fashioned a weapon (out of mistletoe) and tricked another god into using it against him (in some versions)

    I got some of this from Wikipedia

  • brasscap

    Great ideas bouncing around here. I can’t shake the notion that Adam and Eve will end up being two members of the quadrangle. If Juliet in fact dies. My money is on either Jack or Sawyer kicking the bucket, and the other taking a long nap next to Kate.

    I would also love it if Jacob turned out to be Aaron. It’s got to have something to do with being born on the island (though Ethan was as well) and Claire’s noticable absence.

  • chelsea15jk

    This episode was so amazing! The Sawyer/Juliet scene at the end would have had me in tears, had I not been watching it with my dad, but as it was my hair conviently covered my face during that scene.
    I’m definetly going to have to watch the ep again. . .

    I so DID NOT like the Sawyer beating up Jack part. Totally uncalled for.

    And your wife called the Locke thing? Really? She must be secretly psychic or something because I would have never in a million years thought of some guy who is apparently not dead and walking around not being himself. . .but by now I should expect these things.

  • http://seeker65.wordpress.com/2009/05/15/get-your-lost-finale-wrap-ups-here/ Get Your Lost Finale Wrap-up’s Here « ab initio. ab intra.

    [...] James Poniewozik’s TIME Magazine blog [...]

  • sarahjay55

    Random thoughts of a newbie, as I digest everyone’s comments…
    .
    @renewkir I’m certain that was Ilana in the hospital – I recognised it as her chin (!) before Jacob arrived. And the nurse spoke Russian too, so unlikely to have taken place in Tunisia. Didn’t Sayid have an ‘assignment’ in Russia at one point…?
    .
    I love the Aaron-as-resurrected-Jacob idea…
    .
    And going back to Richard’s comment that he remembered the DI/Ajira group ‘very well’ because he saw them die – someone help me out… has Richard ever met Hurley or Jin? I recall him meeting Sawyer, Kate & Jack. I don’t think he met Sayid either, but he wasn’t in the photo.
    .
    oh and someone just mentioned Loki, which reminded me that Jacob bipping lil Katie’s nose made me think of God/Morissette bipping Linda Fiorentino in Dogma!
    .
    (and yes, I cried when Juliet fell)

  • gnatalby

    @bankerman61: Actually, Jacob (Yakov) means ankle, since that’s the part Jacob was grabbing onto.

    My favorite exchange:

    “Locke:” Everything all right?
    Ben: I was enjoying some time alone.

    I was pretty upset by the dredging up of the love square. I mean, come on, people there are more important things going on than who looked at whom. I was like, “For cripes sake, there are people who think we can’t have a woman president because she might let her PMS feelings influence her decision to set off the nuclear bomb… that’s better than these boys letting their feelings of rejection (by friggin’ KATE)determine D-day.”

  • jtoots212

    Locke’s Compass:

    Hopefully you all can help me understand what the deal is with the compass. I’ve been scratching my head trying to figure it out for quite some time.Please correct me if I’m wrong on any of this and fill in any blanks…
    -Locke had the compass when he arrived on the island at the beginning of season one. He ended up giving it to Sayid, saying “I don’t need it anymore,” ending the compass’s journey on one path. What did Sayid do with it?
    -Richard showed the compass to childhood Locke but took it back, so we can conclude that Richard visited childhood Locke during this short period between Locke’s second arrival and his assigned encounter with injured Locke.
    -The more current plot is that Locke had the compass when he came out of the casket back on the island, gave it to Richard, instructed him to give it to his past self, and the loop ensues.

    Am I missing anything? This is my first post but I’ve been following the blog for this season and haven’t caught anybody bringing up Boone’s termination of the compass’s journey.

    Locke’s Legs:
    An interesting point is that every time Locke has been injured, it has been his legs…
    -At Boone’s death, when he was temporarily paralyzed again.
    -In the hatch, when the door comes down on his legs.
    -When he gets shot and encounters Richard, receiving the compass.
    -When he falls down the well and sees Christian.

    I’m really looking for feedback on the compass issue! HEEEELP!!!

  • jtoots212

    Just caught a typo, “haven’t caught anybody bringing up SAYID’s termination of the compass’s journey” -sorry

  • elkaba

    First, greatest bunch of posts…EVER. But then this season finale is fine food for thought, no? After going through the lot, have more questions…
    .
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.” Jacob.
    How does this tie into the numbers?
    Could it be that the best way to decide if Jacob is good or evil is to decide if giving things “a little push” toward “the end” is good or evil? Is he talking about an end to fighting or the end of everything? Or is that really the same thing.
    .
    @rose83…interesting about Jacob visiting Juliette. Would make her change of heart jive with her character a lot better. And whose to say he didn’t visit her and/or many others earlier, as well, just because we haven’t seen it…yet.
    .
    Anyone remember the particulars about the psycic and Claire? I’m thinking he did the dire warning thingy on one day, when she came to visit him, then visited her another day and kind of took it back. Any chance the second visit could have been Jacob or Esau?
    .
    @jameslafluer… if your Revalations theory is correct, perhaps the Jacob-resurrected-in-Aaron-theory works, too. And what is the significance of his name, which in egyptian comes from the words for pregnancy and conception?

  • elkaba

    …make that “who’s” to say… and more questions.
    .
    What about Richard? He’s kind of dropped off the collective radar since the finale. I still think he has a pivotal role somehow. What does he know and who has he been working for? Does he know about Esau, or just Jacob, or has he been working for one posing as the other?
    .
    What is the significance of Jacob dining on a Red Herring?

  • vmontes

    Absolutely loved the finale! The connection of the Jacob/Esau rivalry with the Shepherd family (Christian, Jack, Claire and Aaron) is quite intriguing and crucial. Look forward to the next season ;)

  • hold2file

    Bless you for your detailed summary.

    I stopped watching Lost about three years ago and it is very reassuring to have your summary reinforce my decision as to why.

  • sgtmathhomework

    I believe that Christian is working for Jacob because it seems pretty obvious to me that Locke is Fred. Christian and Richard both tell Locke that he must die to get everyone to come back. Why would Fred, through the mouths of Christian and Richard, do this twice? Locke received the news from 2 independent sources, Jacob and Fred. Christian representing Jacob, and Richard representing POST-RES Locke/Fred.
    .
    Christian’s intervention on Claire’s life screams Holy Mother to me. Was Claire without sin before she was abducted? I can’t remember her doing anything particularly bad. Also I can’t really remember who Aaron’s father is.
    .
    I had another observation that I can’t really tie into anything, I just think it’s noteworthy. Isn’t there a 30 year gap in Jesus’s life in the bible, then 3 more years of records before he’s killed? The Oceanic Six spend 3 years off the island before returning and being sent back 30 years. Though, chronologically, the 30 jump came before the 3. Coincidentally, Aaron didn’t go back in time, so there would be a 30 year gap before any of them saw him again.

  • gnatalby

    @sgtmathhomework: Not quite. When Jesus is twelve he gets lost (Lost! heh.) and is found at the temple in conversation with the Rabbis.

    Luke 2:41-50

  • sgtmathhomework

    I meant the gap between his adolescence and adulthood. He suddenly becomes an adult.

  • gnatalby

    @sgtmathhomework:
    Right, but that gap isn’t 30 years, it’s the gap from 12 to 30– 18 years– then he preaches three years and is crucified at 33.

  • captbaka

    Any of you guys started watching the series over again?
    HELLO, LOCKE EXPLAINING BACKGAMMON? I almost peed my pants.
    “It’s the oldest game in the world. Older than Jesus Christ. Light vs. Dark, etc.” The whole thing seems so meaningful now… with Jacob and Esau.
    I mean, I don’t think it’s as silly as the island is the board of a game of backgammon or anything, but sometimes this show is so detailed and well-thought sometimes that it seriously impresses me.

  • captbaka

    Not like this really adds anything, but since you guys were talking about Christ’s lost adolescence, there’s “The Gospel of Thomas” which apparently most Christians completely repress or something, but it gives a pretty detailed account of his teen years.
    He even shows little bursts of wrath, killing a bird, a kid, and bringing them back to life (to teach them a lesson or something).
    .
    Christians, please don’t smite me for this post.

  • gnatalby

    Well, it’s not repressed, it’s just not included in the canonical gospels, but it, along with many other gospels, are in the apocrypha, which is available at the back of lots of bibles.

    The church has more money than God, if they were trying to “completely repress” something it wouldn’t be available at Borders.

  • music97

    A key to all of this is the Hanso corporation and foundation. It was their goal to see humans evolve. Alvar Hanso was a descendent of Magnus Hanso, a 19th century sea captain who is alleged to be buried on the island next to the Black Rock. Magus Hanso operated his shipping company out of England. I suspect that there is a connection with this fact and Widmore’s and Faraday’s British accents. I think we are seeing the results of the Hanso experiments on humans, like Richard not aging. Jacob has extraordinary powers, but so does Miles and Walt and no one doubts that they are human. Big clue–in the first scene with Jacob, the first thing you see is Jacob eating. That looks pretty human to me. Wouldn’t it make sense that Miles was used as an experiment while he was a baby on the island, and that’s why his mother didn’t want to talk about his gift while she was on her deathbed? The experiments for the evolution of human abilities accounts for the Others fascination with Walt. Also, there is the Valenzetti Equation which “predicts the exact number of years and months until humanity extinguishes itself” through atomic warfare. Interesting isn’t it that the character in black says to Jacob that when it comes to humans, the outcome is always the same–they destroy. Interesting isn’t it that there just happens to be an atomic bomb on the island, and guess who sets it off? Anyone wonder how a 40 ton bomb was moved underground? I don’t expect that we will see the story “reset” i.e. seeing the Losties arriving in LA. There is a much bigger and better surprise waiting for us.

  • lostepic

    Ok. I know its quite late in commenting and I am sure someone already stated what I got out of it. I agree that if the duality of the island, the battle bewteen light and dark, between Jacob and “the dude on the beach” was hinted at earlier I would have enjoyed the scene in the beginning a whole lot more. One thing to note. Its implyed that “The dude on the beach” cant kill Jacob himself. I am led to believe that “the dude on the beach” or Fred as you call him manifested himself to Ben when ben was being judged by smokey, and therefore is smokey. He was also Christian, and possibley the guy on the rocking chair saying “help me” to Locke in the cabin, last season in 2004. I saw a still frame of the shot and it looks similar to the actor who plays “fred” and he also manifested himself as Locke. Its not locke but “Fred” pretending to be locke. Thus getting one of “Jacobs” precious people to kill him. However, if Jacob is Jacob then I think its save to assume that he thought ahead. Its chess and you plan moves and set up future moves. Hence SotS people and Llana. If Juliet is dead I am going to be pissed, which she might be now that I see she is going to be on the V redux. Cross my fingers. The vacillating Juliet was lame. But the intial loss was real and poineght. So when we find her alive at the bottom of the hole, my emotional response to her death was robbed.
    Yeah the bomb going off was a little lame, I figured that the island had her survive and the bomb, somehow. either way it was dumb. Jack/Sawyer fight was long waited adn needed.
    .
    Best part of the show was the very beginning with Jacob. I was glad that the producers didnt need to explicitly state that the ship off the coast was the Black Rock. And that any respecting Lostie would know right away that it was the black rock and that now that we know that Richard was made ageless by Jacob that its save to say that Richard was on the Black Rock as were any original Others.
    .
    Jacob is more of a Christ/God figure than any of the other characters and “Fred” his opposite. Jacob gave Ben a choice, granted Jacob hid some piviotal knowledge concerning the fact that locke is not locke but “Fred” and that knowledge would keep Ben from killing Jacob consider he has been manipulating him.
    .
    We are about to go to the last season so while my jaw dropped at the fact I know nothing of what happened to everyone when the bomb went off I think it was the best thing. Keeps us talking about all our theories, I still say that the bomb causes the incident and ’77 losties are in present time. Only because to be transported back to the first season and repeat it with the same knowledge would be to much. The current dead people would be back, wouldnt they? Thats too much work adn if the dead people arent back then its serves no value to take them back to the beginning. I liked the black letters on white. sort of a symbol that the season is going to change into something we arent use to. If you look at the seasons back to back the show has really moved mor3e adn more towards teh mythology of the island adn Big Picture style. Which I love I just wished it was more congruent with the rest.
    .
    Rose adn Benard. I love youguys. They mirrored exactly what “fred” stated only in a loving hopeful way to get the Losties to change.

  • lostepic

    One thing to note. the first flight 815, crashed due to the electromagnetic burst caused by Desmonds belated pushing of the button. The Ajira flight witnessed a flash as well. What caused teh flash? thats the question.
    .
    It could be, Jacob. so that the SotS and O6ers adn co. get to the time line he wants them to be in order to counter loophole of “the dude on the beach”.
    .
    Something else happens that causes it, say, the incident plus atomic bomb.
    .
    Yes I agree there is no way for certian to know the bomb went off. We will have to wait and see.
    .
    Jacob is the light. He is hopeful for people to change etc… Teh dark counterpart does not.
    Thus I still argue that Christian is not Christian or being controlled by Jacob. He is manipulating the people so he has to say it twice. to locke that he has to die. While its true Lockes death solidified the rest in returning but it gave “the dude on the beach” the way in to influence Ben into doing what he wants.
    .
    I once thought that all the people Ben had Sayid shooting was Widmores men. But we dont see, as far as I can remember, Widmore acknowledging that he was doing such. So I then theorized that it was more of the SotS, but if thats the case why only try to prevent Miles from going, so now I am thinking that Jacob had the Others and perhaps “the dude on the beach” has his people too. But that would mean Ben knew about them, and really Ben seemed quite oblivious to the idea of Jacob adn who he was.
    .
    All I know is that in order for me to be happy with next season the show has to do a few things:
    Juliet isnt dead-I am flexable on this one but I would perfer it.
    .
    I dont care if the bomb went off or not I just want the’77 losties are in present time not repeat of Season 1 with the new experience and knowledge, because if they do that they have to bring back everyone and there is too much to deal with story adn character wise in one season.
    .
    Jacob is not dead.
    .
    We see more of Jacob’s influence in the past.
    .
    While I am happy to see a real villian, not one that is for the island but just uses different methods than the other. I want to see more of “the dude on the beach/esau/fred/dark counterpart” etc.. but I want the real John Locke back. Jacob saw something in him enough to go and touch him and wake him/resurrect him from the fall. I would hate to see Locke be evil just because another character is pretending to be him. I dont like it nor do I think its conducive to character growth or story arc.
    .
    we slowly learn more about the roots of the island and jacob/dark jacob. not too much too fast. lIKE I said before I think I would appriciate and enjoy the beginning showing Jacob adn Dark Jacob if they were hinted at more prevelantly in the beginning of the series. Yes teh themes of light and dark were there but not the characters and the big picture.

  • falkenna

    Things I haven’t seen mentioned yet (or not in this way):
    1. That the island moves and has monumental sculpture resembling Egyptian, suggests to me that it may be Atlantis.
    2. I don’t think Jacob & Fred are any *one* mythical pair, but basically the Bright God (Sun or Resurrected God – Osiris, Christ/Jehovah, Baldur, Llew Llaw Gyffes) and the Dark God (Set, Lucifer/Satan, Loki, Gronw) – locked in archetypal battle, with the Bright God often killed because of a loophole – and sometimes resurrecting. *If* the island is Atlantis – then they could be prototypes of all of the above, the truth behind the myths.
    3. Do the official ABC site blurbs ever get it wrong? They identified the statue as the goddess Taweret, when 1) it isn’t a goddess, 2) unlike her, the body is human (as well as apparently male), and thus looked much more like Sobek, and 3) Sobek fits so much better, particularly in this Wikipedia quote echoing what a previous post said:
    “Sobek’s ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part.”
    4. Is Charlie going to assume a special significance? They found his ring, and I think that’s his guitar case. He also sacrificed his life for the others (thus spectacularly redeeming his otherwise rather snivelling little life).
    5. Has Fred “ridden” Locke, off and on, right from the beginning? I was always struck by the way the messages from the island sometimes failed him. Sometimes he was focused, confident, and *right*, other times he was uncertain and foolish.

  • lostepic

    @falkenna:
    1. has been mentioned before in other posts if not in this one along with that the island was once in the mederterainian thus the egyptiean influence.
    2. that too has been discussed.
    3. if you mean Lostie blurbs then I would agree with you on them being wrong but if saying that the producers are saying tis Taweret than I find that hard to believe. They arent just throwing in egyptiean hierogyphics around without understanding what it means. They are intentional even with the script that is somewhat illegable because they know how die-hard their fans are. Like when Hurley was seeing Charlie in the interrogation room swim up to the window and place his hand on it and the window bursts with the water gushing out. You cant make out what was written on Charlies hand without pausing it and playing it in slow-mo. The producers are miticulous.
    4. I hope so. I really do. They cant bring back everyone. But if they do bring back someone from the dead, and I mean not as ghosts, it has to be: Charlie, Charlotte, Faraday, and Juliet and Sayid. if they died.
    .
    That reminds me. Are the ghosts Hurley is seeing manisfestations of Jacob or “the dude on the beach”/fred/Esau. I know he isnt a reflection of the biblical esau but it works.
    We now know that is what “the dude on the beach” does and is doing and its safe to assume that Locke is dead, in the season finale anyway, and that it was “Fred”. It was also “Fred” pretending to be Yemi, Walt?, Bens mother?, Alex. Which we always chalked up to either “the Island” or smokey. But when Jacob met with Hurley in the cab, Jacob told him that some would call it a gift. As in he was praising it. And we all know that the Island itself was intended to be a character so could the ghosts that Hurley is seeing be the island itself?

  • fbquick

    Quick question: In reference to the book Jacob was reading when John fell. Was it the same book they dug out of Naomi’s bag when they first found her? The one with Desmond’s picture in it? Any significance there?

  • danielb2506

    While revisiting Rose & Bernard in the season 5 Finale, did anyone else happen to think of Adam & Eve, the two skeletons from the caves in Season 1?…

  • donkshan

    One thing I just felt like noting. The dharma initiation videos with Pierre and the oddly and seemingly deliberate placement of the date of production at the end of some videos.
    .
    The phrase “We’re the good guys.” seems to be thrown about faaarrr too much. By the others and by the sots crew (Brahm). Either leading us to believe that the sots people are others, at least in some capacity, or am an ocd arseh@le. ;)
    .
    Even kelvin inman (clancy browns character from the hatch and Iraq) seemed to know that sayid would come to be on the island. I have no answers about that, just questions..
    .
    Why was sun not sent back to the seventies?!

  • andrew999

    Ha ha. Predictably the Christians are falling over themselves to find parallels and parables in the lost script. Was that fish that Jacob filleted symbolic of his alter ego as Jebus? Perhaps, but it did look suspiciously like a red herring. If anything I feel that the message of lost is that good and evil is relative and that there is no absolute light and darkness. After all, all the main players have blood on their hands.

    My religious bretheren, please for once in your lives stop trying to attach meaning to everything, watch the show for what it is and enjoy being teased and titillated by a wonderful sci fi fantasy.

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