Tuned In

Lostwatch: Faith-Based Initiative

ABC
ABC

 

Before you read this post, take a deep, deep breath, dive in and watch last night’s Lost. 

“Follow the Leader” was an exciting, engaging episode of Lost—partly, I think, because it set a concrete direction for the end of the season—but because it jumped around so much in order to set things in place for the finale, I’m tempted not to even try to big-picture it in one essay, but rather deal with it in one big hail of bullets. That, and I’m going on about four hours of sleep right now. (Please forgive the typos that probably riddle this post. If I somehow manage not to cut-and-paste my grocery list into this post, I’ll consider that a success.) So, yes: the hail of bullets looks like a good idea. 

Well, one big-picture thing. It always comes back to the Man of Science vs. the Man of Faith, doesn’t it? And in this case, Jack and Locke are each in command, with two different groups, in two different decades, with two different Big Ideas to set things right on the Island. Jack’s, of course, is science-based, and Locke’s, well, faith-based. Jack wants to set off a hydrogen bomb to change the course of history. Locke, in a way, has an even bigger target in mind: he intends to kill Jacob, which seems practically tantamount to killing God. 

Can they both be right? Can either? If the title is “Follow the Leader”—which one of them is it? Tune in next week. Now here’s your big hail of bullets:

* While John Locke gets more and more confident—and ht damn, but I love confident Locke—Richard grows more and more puzzling. Before Ben even told us, we had gotten the sense that he had been around on the Island for a long time, in his role of “advisor.” Although he sometimes could seem sinister and ruthless, though, he has always appeared single-minded in his devotion to the Island’s interests—as he sees them—and to his people and their preservation. But that long meaningful look Locke shot him when he noted how curious it was that no one was allowed to talk to Jacob suggests that maybe he has been more of a manipulator even in regard to his own people.

* The Christ parallels with Locke have been plenty, but this seems like another: he is challenging the old order of a religion (here Richard, and perhaps also Jacob himself) which insists on serving as the interface between God and the people, and offering the people the promise of direct communication with the divine instead. We know what happened to Jesus—but Locke has already been resurrected. Hasn’t he?

* Speaking of which, Richard’s gobsmacked reaction to Locke’s saying that he died was very curious. Has anything ever freaked Richard out before? 

* Yet again we saw a scene from earlier in the season replayed, as Locke told Richard how to save and instruct himself at the site of the crashed drug plane. But why, exactly, was it so important to Locke that he get Richard to do this? Is it simply that he’s not so much a believer in “What happened, happened”? Also, a picky cavil: the compass, unless my space-time logic is faulty, exists in a closed loop and was never created. (As someone here—sorry I can’t remember who—guessed in an earlier Lostwatch thread.) Not sure I like that.

* And speaking of Richard: “I watched them all die.” Well, we don’t know this to be the case. But whatever Richard has been in the past, he’s never really been a liar like Ben. (Has he? Please correct me if I’m forgetting.) If Ben had said this, I would have assumed it was a lie for some purpose. From Richard… well, I don’t know what to think, but I am starting to suspect that, however these stories play out, it will not be as simple as, “What happened, happened.” 

* One last Richard observation: good thing Cane got cancelled, no? 

* So: back to 1977, then. It made sense that someone, at some point, would spill the beans about the O6 members being from the future. But the exchange between Chang and Hurley—in which Marvin Chang used Hurley’s simple ignorance of history to trip him up—was just brilliant. ”What year were you born?” “Uh, 19.. 31.” “You’re 46? You fought in the Korean war?” “There was no such thing.” “Who is the President of the United States?” “All right, dude, we’re from the future.”

* I’ve got to say, I’m disappointed that after showing himself a changed, in-control man after three years on the Island, Sawyer sold his mates out—well, if he didn’t sell them out, at least gave himself and Juliet an out without trying to save them. (Whereas earlier he was willing to give up the life he made to help Jack and Kate.) His giving Radzinsky the map to the Hostiles (presumably) makes me wonder: is it possible that he’s making possible a Dharma surprise attack on the Hostiles—perhaps foiling the H-bomb plot in the process and ensuring a retaliatory Purge down the road? Or is that too easy? Could it be that whatever Dharma has planned will end up changing history, but not in the way Jack is trying to? 

* I always forget Sayid is out there until someone gets popped out of the blue. He is truly the Omar of Lost. (Speaking of characters floating around out there, I wonder whether and how Desmond is going to come back into play.)

* Marvin Pierre Chang’s involvement with his son and company is an interesting twist. Think of all the videos we’ve seen him in, for instance, from the standpoint of knowing that he knows someone tried to warn Dharma away from the Incident. Or does he know? Are those videos part of a future that he may end up helping to change, or prevent? (And if so, what becomes of the white bunny?)

* Apropos of nothing, seeing Ellie in the scene with he dead son and realizing that at the same time she is pregnant with him weirded me out something fierce. 

* Even more apropos of nothing, the sub sinking into the water was one of the more blatantly CGI-looking FX I’ve seen on Lost in a long time. 

* Not that I actually expect Sawyer and Juliet to make it off the Island and run off into the sunset, but it’s sad to know that he will know enough to buy Microsoft early, but will not know enough to know to pull his money out of stocks before the market peak of late 2007.

* One housekeeping thing: I try not to be a hall monitor about no-spoilers, but because there is info out there about who may appear in the finale—and the previews showed more than I would like in general—let’s stay away from the spoilage, please.

 * Finally, a rare achievement for Kate. If we exclude Marvin Chang’s ownage of Hurley on American history, Ms. Austen, of all people, gets off the funniest line of the night: ”Since when did shooting kids and blowing up hydrogen bombs become OK?” Indeed!

Related Topics: lost, Uncategorized
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  • renewkir

    It might not be as meaningful since it’s not a tangible thing, but Daniel’s name is also in a closed loop. Eloise knows to name him Daniel because she was told that was his name. So the idea for his name was never contrived. Same thing with the inscription on Daniel’s journal, and probably a hundred other little things. The closed loops are not real cool, IMO.

  • Kafka

    I’m not one who comments much about bad CGI effects but even I was struck by just *how* terrible the submarine scene was.
    .
    Regarding Richard possibly lying, I remember commenting here a few episodes back (under the sn LIandKafka)(Hi again :) ) about Richard’s quick retort to Charles about how “Jacob” had ordered something or was the reason for some decision (sorry for my incoherence, it’s late here too and I can’t remember all the details but it was in regard to saving Ben). Anyway, I remarked at the time how I wondered about Richard seemed to use Jacob as a way of shutting up Charles and how it didn’t make sense given that, in prior episodes, Jacob either summoned people or gave messages via cabin visits. Since Richard had no time to see Jacob or visit him before wounded young-Ben showed up, I thought Richard manipulated the reference to “Jacob.” Now, after tonight’s episode I wonder even more.
    .
    That said, I love and am deeply fascinated by the Richard Alpert character and wouldn’t want to think the worst of him. So I’m more confused than ever.
    .
    On a totally tangent, (and forgive the even greater ramblings), I’ve long believed in the Richard Alpert as Egyptian “Ra” theory but tonight, I think he’s more akin to the Egyptian High Priests and, especially, those faced with the historical actions of Akhenaten. He was the pharaoh who (with his wife, the legendary beauty Nefertiti) led a revolt against the established religion of multiple gods, essentially creating the basis for the first monotheistic religion. He created a new capital but was later overthrown and his statues were all later defaced. He was known forever more as a heretic and a false pharaoh.
    .
    My point: I think Locke and his plan to kill Jacob is a symbolic nod to what Akhenaten tried to do to the old Egyptian Gods. Akhenaten was first allies with the grand priests and, like all pharaohs, he used Ra as a way to cement his position as the leader. Then he turned on Ra and the Gods, going to their capital which he tried to destroy (I think) in order to create a new world order. And, as the “false” prophet or pharoah, he eventually, he lost all. Okay, I know it’s probably a huge stretch but Locke taking his army on the Island God’s headquarters and not being submissive to Richard the way part Other Leaders have been really made me think of that.
    .
    Other random, probably totally incorrect thought: technically, Locke cheated the test to be leader, didn’t he? *He* didn’t actually kill his father; the Others don’t know that. But just like Jacob’s orders weren’t followed entirely when *Ben* moved the Donkey Wheel instead of Locke, what if Locke is the “false leader” of the Others??? Which would make his decisions heresy in terms of Island theology?
    .
    Taking all this further and combining theories: one(obviously) can’t be dead to be a Pharaoh or come back from the dead — The Book of the Dead notwithstanding. By the same measure, I assume the leader/Pharoah of the Others can’t be dead. Richard’s shock over Locke’s announcement was akin to the High Priest of Ancient Egypt being told that his pharaoh had come back from the dead, and thinking: “It can’t be right and this man can’t be the One after all. I’ll have to stop this heresy before it destroys everything.”
    .
    Gosh it’s way late and I’m probably being crazy. Forgive my crazy and LONG analysis.

  • covelebm

    I don’t see why the closed loops are such an issue. As a physics buff, I find the idea of objects and information existing without a beginning or an end in time delightful. If anything, I get annoyed by the contradiction in philosophy brought up by the loops. If we’re now adopting the “you can change things after all” attitude, it doesn’t seem logical to me that John should be able to instruct himself (via Richard). That closed loop would imply that there was no “first” John, so changes to the course of events shouldn’t be possible. Make up your mind, Lost!

  • elkaba

    Can’t say why, but tonight left me with the distinct idea that all that stuff at the end was not about Jacob, John or Ben, but about Richard, and that he is not at all what he has always been assumed to be, as in a)a god, b)a priest, c)a pirate, d)immortal. It further struck me that while he appears frequently, I don’t remember getting the absolute sense that his presence is necessarily sustained among the Hostiles/Others. As an advisor, I think it’s possible he just always shows up when something pivotal is happening. And that leads me on to the idea that he would need to know WHEN to show up and what to do when he’s there. The rest of this logic isn’t hard. To know all that he has to be, like the O-6, from the future and, in fact, further into the future. He has learned somehow to control the time jumps (not just pop about willy nilly, nose bleeding, in a big, bright light.) By jove, I think I’ve got it! The evidence has been there all along. The O-6 have been jumping through the years themselves, and without aging. What if he’s trying to fix what the O-6 did while trying to fix what the Dharma/Hostiles did? Wow!

  • Kafka

    @Covelebm: I quite agree, I don’t understand how John is able to instruct himself about himself, when he was first instructed by Richard who was instructed by John, who was….
    .
    The closed-loop theory is starting to make my head spin after the John instructing his time-bopping self via Richard. It hurts even more so with regard to the compass. In this episode, I thought Locke said that Richard was getting his compass “back” after the Locke flash (and, I fully grant you, I’m too tired to be up-to-date on all the compass exchanges right now,) but didn’t there have to be an *initial* point of origin with the compass to begin with? But when did Richard give the compass to Locke with the message for him to give it back to 1954 Richard? It wasn’t during this “heal the bullet wound” time frame, I don’t think. Wasn’t it during the next Flash Jump when Locke saw Richard, or am I getting confused? Either way, there was supposed to be a big point about showing the compass in this episode but I’m afraid I’m too confused, *time wise.*

  • Matt

    One quick word about the closed-loop thing: if time exists simultaneously, there is no “initial iteration” – any sort of time travel never didn’t happen.
    .
    General thoughts to come in a few hours.

  • macevangelist

    So Hurley never paid attention in history class. While he rewrites Empire he can’t remember Jimmy Carter or Korea. But anyway, I liked that Miles came clear with his father, and that this issue was further resolved during the evacuation scene. Richard (cool scene with that ship in the bottle) does not know what to make of Locke 2.0, it is obviously pretty important that dead is dead… and John smiling at Sun and lying her in the face the same instant was pretty cool, but a little bit disturbing. If he lied to Sun, and not to Ben, that is. I wonder what the hostiles do all day long in their tent cities, be it 1977 or 30 years later. There were nice edits between the two timeframes, always centered on Richards movements. Good that his shirt was grey in the past, and blue in the present.

  • brfalcon

    So, the time loops make sense on the physics, end, a thing doesn’t need a creator or a birth to exist, but what about Daniel and the O6? If they change time and the plane lands and they never reach the island, they still have to go back, some how, in time, to close that sequence, because if they never go back to the island from the year 2007 then they never effect the change in 1977, unless this explosion shifts from one theoretical universe to another. this is the first time a stretch in physics on this show has actually bothered me, but i just cant get my head around this one.

  • chriskw

    I hate the thing about the compass as well. Although, Richard said it was more rusty than when Locke gave it to him in ’54. So wouldn’t tham mean he gave him a different compass. But they sure made it seem like it was the same one. I also don’t like it when people can see their past selves (i.e. Locke and Miles). I was distracted by the CGI shot but not anymore than I was distracted by the miniature freighter blowing up in last season’s finale.

    The good thing about this season coming to an end is that we will finally get out of this time traveling storyline. At least I hope we do. I don’t want to spend season six watching characters talk about “ifs” “What ifs” and such.

  • zachmatthews

    Anyone else catch the music in the scene pictured above? I’m not clear if we’ve heard that before; it was sort of anthemic. Coupled with the iconic trail of people walking across sand, waves on one side and jungle on the other, we have… the Exodus. And Locke is Charlton Heston/Moses. Which would make Richard Alpert an Aaronic figure, the helper to Moses and ultimately promoter of false gods, and also himself the first in the line of priests. (Not to mention that we already have a prominent Aaron on this island, who has unexplainedly disappeared but who was certainly a target of interest for “Jacob” early in the series). You play with time and relationships enough and anything’s plausible, right? Is Claire Richard Alpert’s father? Was he the original Aaron; now bound to jump through time correcting past mistakes? Like in Quantum Leap? All we need now is for Richard Dean Anderson to make an appearance, repair the Heroin Express with bubble gum and bamboo, and fly everyone off the island for a perfect 80′s-meta experience.

  • macevangelist

    @10…

    The theme is around since the season one soundtrack,
    it was called “Hollywood and Vines” back then.

  • dmb45

    The only reason Sawyer “sold out” his friends was because they stopped beating him and starting beating Juliet. Before that happened he didn’t say a word.

  • Kemper

    Ladies and gentlemen, Kate Austin, The Amazing Hostage!
    .
    I had hoped we were going to be seeing a ‘new and improved’ Kate after the great moment of declaring that she was going to go back to the island and find Claire, but it seems that she’s reverted to the same old Kate. Changing her mind, running around the jungle with no real goal, screwing up everyone’s plans and then getting caught.
    .
    That got me thinking about some of the other charactes though. We’ve seen a lot of apparent change in some of the major players, but it seems like they may be reverting to their former selves now. Kate went from seeming that she had a true purpose to making decisions that are symbolically choices between Jack and Sawyer. And once again, she can’t make up her mind.
    .
    Jack had seemed to let go of his control freak ways until Farraday dangled the possibility of erasing the entire island incident with a giant reset button of detonating Jughead. Once that idea was out there, Jack once again turned into the guy who wants to fix everything and has stubbornly latched onto one idea. So much for the laid back janitor.
    .
    Locke seems to have shed his old persona to become the confident leader he always longed to be. However, with his declaration about killing Jacob and his complete disinterest in finding out how he’s back from the dead, I fear that once again, John Locke is a sap. This time, I think the island is the one playing him. I’m afraid that island is using him and that once the island’s goals are completed, Locke’s borrowed time is up. Wouldn’t it be exactly like Locke to think he’s finally accomplished everything he wanted only to find out that he’s been used again, and then *bam*, he’s dead.
    .
    Sawyer seems to desperately want to be the better man he turned himself into, but despite his best efforts, he keeps getting put into positions to betray people. Either Jack or Kate. Or maybe Julia with the return of Hostage Kate. (Loved his line about buying Microsoft and betting the Cowboys in the Super Bowl.)
    .
    Oh, and one more thought. One guy who definately isn’t going to be down with Jack’s reset button plan is John Locke. No way is he going to take a chance on being back in his wheelchair as a nobody again, even if it could possibly bring back Boone and the other dead castaways. What’s going to happen if ’07 Locke finds out what ’77 Jack is trying to do?

  • Dave

    @brfalcon – you actually just explained WHH in a nutshell, along with why the producers chose the WHH time model (as opposed to the Butterfly Effect/Back to the Future model). That’s also why I’m not really anxious over the finale. I definitely want to see what happens, but they won’t be able to change things. In Jack’s attempt to change the future, he’s simply going to act out what has always happened.
    `
    @Kemper – if Locke is as omnipotent as he appears to be, he’s either aware that Jack is simply acting out history or not aware of anything, since history has already happened, and Our Heroes will just be showing up in 2007/08 in just a few hours.

  • Dave

    My buddy Dave and I were joking about how hilarious it would be if everyone DID die, and S6 was focused around Team Shadow of the Statue.
    `
    Though until Kate ended up on the sub, a little part of me was hoping that Sawyer and Juliet really could just get off the Island like that and live happily ever after (insert scene of S&J 30 years older on Ajira 316 and ending up back on the Island).
    `
    Speaking of S&J, I feel even sadder about their potential to end up together. The producers are laying it on pretty thick that they’ve got each other’s back and that they love each other. Sigh.

  • madmatt86

    I’m actually a little disappointed, I expected more background information from an episode with Richard as “featured” character. Probably that just means Richard’s character is one of the very last puzzle pieces if we do not learn about his motives in season 5.
    .
    While the closed loops were just a little disturbing, actually seeing Richard shocked (as opposed to confused but calm when meeting random people from the future) was VERY disturbing. 10 minutes before the end, I actually expected the cliffhanger to be Locke pointing at him and saying “Ladies and Gentlemen, meet Richard Alpert.”
    Well, maybe next time.

  • madmatt86

    *Richard “Jacob” Alpert, that is.

  • Kemper

    @ Dave – Assuming that WHH remains the flavor of the day, I agree. (But I find it hard to believe that this whole season has just been a time travel exercise in WHH with all the characters just butting their heads against the same wall the entire year so I’ve still got some Farrady style hope that WHH can be changed.)
    .
    Even if Jack fails and WHH, then it still shows how committed he is to trying to ‘fix’ what happened to the castaways. And we know that Locke is going to be more committed than ever to preserving his place on the island. (“I’ve got not interest in reuniting with my people.”) You gotta assume that when the two finally meet again, it’s going to make their previous conflicts look like a picnic.

  • Dave

    @Kemper – If you’re thinking in a pure endgame sense, then yes, the whole season has been nothing but proving WHH (much like how S4 was nothing but finishing Jack and Kate’s conversation in 2007). The Lost has never been a pure endgame show. Yes, it’s always been building to it, but it’s all about characters and their interactions and the journeys that they’re on. In that context, S4 and S5 have done a lot for us.
    `
    Who says that Jack failing results in WHH? I’ve just been assuming that Jack succeeding is the Incident itself.

  • Kemper

    @Dave – By Jack failing, I meant that Jack fails to stop 815 from crashing. So there again, WHH.
    .
    I’m also assuming that if WHH is unbreakable, then Jack trying to set off the H-Bomb does cause The Incident. Which means that Jack will have set off the chain of events that cause the crash. Oh, that’s just brutal…
    .
    This brings up another point. Since Farraday knew about The Incident, but was desperately trying to set off Jughead to ‘stop’ it, you’d think he’d realize that the two were connected, right? But he seemed to think he’d prevent The Incident by detonating it, not cause it. That seems odd coming from the guy who knew all about WHH. So I’m guessing Jack and company will miss some crucial step that Farraday was going to do?

  • Tom Shaw

    Not a lot of subtext here, so this will be short:
    -
    Why does Locke want to kill Jacob? Some possibilities:
    Kill Jacob to free him. Recall that when Jacob was introduced, there was a ring around the cabin, and we argued over whether it was to keep something out, or to keep Jacob in. Perhaps the only way to free Jacob (or free Jacob 2.0, anyway) is to kill the corporeal Jacob 1.0 part.
    -
    Kill Jacob to rule. I will remind you (it has been a while) that there have been signs that Christian 2.0 was not necessarily on the same side as Jacob. I’m not sure the O6 would have ever left the Island if it wasn’t for Christian 2.0 – though, for all we know, the entire process was a gambit to plant the Shadow of the Statue crew on The Island. So yes, Locke 2.0 has unnatural knowledge – but who can say the 2.0 part is necessarily working on the side of the angels?
    -
    Kill Jacob for self-determination. It’s been a while since the Valis mention, but I will again point out that the core belief of the Gnostic faith is that God is not running reality, Satan is (and God is off slumbering/waterskiing/whatever). The entire modern-day reality of The Island has been shaped by their leaders telling the people what to do, solely because (supposedly) God/Jacob told them to – and Locke 2.0 thinks it is time for a new order.
    -
    (Although, writing this out, something just came to me. I’ve already mentioned that Christian 2.0 is not bound by time and space (see him operating in both 2007 and the Atlantis era), and now Locke 2.0 has knowledge of exact timing in “the future”. Who says Jacob had to be from the past – what if the shiny metal box the SotS crew is carting around in 2007 has Jacob 1.0′s body inside?)
    -
    And yes, Richard’s shock at Locke’s resurrection is extremely intriguing. If Richard’s agelessness is indeed due to his past resurrection, does that indicate Richard is worried that Locke will take Richard’s job, and not just Ben’s? If Richard is unaware of past resurrections, then what is the source of his agelessness?
    -
    One thing that struck me about the American History test failure – between Chang/Miles/Hurley/Jin, there wasn’t a single white guy in the scene. Then I realized there wasn’t a single woman either (they were, or were about to be, in chains or desperately searching for their man). Still, progress!

  • Dave

    @Kemper – Ah, I see what you’re saying.
    `
    I was wondering the same thing about Farraday. I had just written it off as he had finally snapped and gone really crazy, but maybe he did have a master plan that Jack is just incapable of carrying out.
    `
    Change of pace: so who is Jacob? I had assumed that he was the embodiment of the will of the Island, but if Locke (if that’s his real name!) is getting his orders from the Island, do we have a suicidal Island or something?

  • Dave

    @Tom – I had interpreted Richard’s shock at Locke’s resurrection as that Ben learned his thoughts on death (Dead is Dead) from Richard, and Richard apparently thought his source of knowledge to be infallible.
    `
    If Locke was lying to Sun about trying to get their people together, would it be unrealistic for him to be lying to Ben about going to kill Jacob? This new Confident Locke seems to enjoy pushing the buttons of people who think they know what’s going on, so why not turn Ben’s world just a little more upside down?

  • shara says

    I, for one, love watching the timeloops get closed. I also totally agree that WHH, and that Jack’s obsessive pursuit of changing things is exactly (a la 12 Monkeys) what causes the Incident and the plane crash to eventually happen.
    .
    I don’t think that proving WHH means that this season has no point. I agree with Dave that while this show has an endgame, its not just an endgame show. I also think that in their experiences in the past, they are going to gain information and insight that is going to prepare them for the showdown with the statue shadow folks, making the line “the wrong side will win” make a lot more sense. If Ms. Hawking and Charles Whidmore got a lot of their information from the journal, then this means that their past selves had knowledge of future events, but their present (post-Ajira) selves only really have knowledge of “past” events (Ajira and before) – at some point their intel runs out, and they’re all about setting the stage for a future conflict about which they do not have intel from time travelers – their endgame, their attempt to retake (or protect) the island. What Happened Happened, but once they finish closing the timeloops then Whatever Happens Happens and nothing more is predetermined… I can just see them waiting patiently all these years to play their parts so they can finally be free to move forward with a long-term plan.
    .
    Or not. whatever. I loved when Sawyer called Juliet “sweetheart” :) And Kate’s shooting kids and blowing up bombs comment was awesome. The CGI was kinda pitiful, but whatever. Chang interrogating Hurley was my very favorite scene (“OK, dude, fine, we’re from the future”), and I love that Myles was able to finally get some closure and understand that he, himself, was partly responsible for setting into motion all the things that happened to make his earlier life so painful, which is much like I see Jack’s actions with the bomb, he’s just gonna be the one to actively create the chain of events that led to the plane crash that causes him so much pain, and his whole purpose in being sent back was to be just who he is – obsessed, stubborn, driven, etc, so he could start the whole chain of events.

  • jcb10

    Yes, James, so glad “Cane” got cancelled. Poor Nestor Carbonell, however, probably makes less recurring on “Lost” then featured on Cane. I hope they bump him up to a regular in season 6.
    .
    And “Marvin” Chang, James? So many pseudonyms to keep track of. His name is Pierre Chang, aka Marvin Candle or Edgar Halliwax. :-)

  • Kemper

    When I said that I’d find it hard to believe if the entire season turned out to be the characters butting their heads against WHH, I didn’t mean to imply that meant that I thought the season was pointless. Even if WHH turns out to be the absolute, unbreakable rule, then I still consider this a terrific season. I just find it strange that the show that constantly shocks me would tell me all season what their time travel rules are, and then find out that there wasn’t some kind of twist.

  • Tom Shaw

    One other minor note: Locke’s bullet surgery timing does line up properly with the now-militarized SotS crew shooting at the longboat 815ers, yes? I haven’t rewatched any of this season to work out the timing.

  • natego

    Anyone stop to think that Jack’s plan cannot cause the Incident, because the Incident CHANGED the way the Swan was used. This implies the Swan was already built and being used for something else.
    .
    If Jacks plan is carried out the Swan will never be built in the first place!

  • Dave

    @Kemper – I think the twist is the role Desmond plays. Using the stones in a stream example, Desmond can throw stones in the stream, and the stream will correct itself around the stones. The question is, what happens if Desmond were to throw a stone large enough to divert the stream altogether?
    `
    @Tom – The beechcraft scene actually bothered me from Because You Left. The outside of the plane looked burnt out, but then inside the plane, things looked like they weren’t ever on fire. But yes, now the timing of it sounds like it works right for the SotS folks to be chasing the Quantum Leapers.

  • Dave

    @natego – it depends on how Jack’s plan gets carried out and what exactly the Swan is designed to do in the first place. Because it’s very clear that they poured a LOT of concrete on top of whatever it was they were building on, then built the Swan on top of it.
    `
    One minor plot thing that I’ve had to turn a blind eye to: does the DI honestly think that they can hide the construction of the Swan? Maybe it’s possible that they drastically underestimate the Hostiles abilities, and the Hostiles have been fully aware from the start. *shrug*

  • macevangelist

    @30…

    right… that hostiles have no problems finding two harmless Dharma picknickers, but will not stumble over a large construction site hidden behind a fake fence.

  • profdante

    The compass just hurts my brain, so I can’t even begin to comment about that except to say that the idea of Richard as timeless ‘advisor’ is intriguing — but really, what are he and the Others/Hostiles doing all these years — camped on the beach building ships in a bottle? Really? At least Dharma has their experiments and stations — the Hostiles simply seem to lounge around in their casual J.Peterman wear. (side note: did anybody else hope to see Cindy again? Okay, maybe just me)
    .
    Best thing about the episode: Sayid’s comes back with a vengeance! Only to be schooled by Kate — d’oh! I have the bad feeling that Sayid’s gonna die though. He doesn’t have a lot to live for at this point.
    Worst thing about the episode (other than the cheesy CGI): Um, Sun, don’t you have any followup questions for Richard like “How did they die? What happened? Are you sure?”

  • Dave

    I think the compass thing could be easily remedied by a Richard flashback episode where he’s going to meat child John Locke, and he accidentally breaks the compass, so he stops by a pawn shop and picks up the original compass.
    `
    Man, thinking about child Locke reminds me about just how much unresolved stuff there is.

  • tenderfeet

    @Tom Shaw/Dave – Regarding the SotS folks shooting at the time-jumpers; I thought that happened during the day (or at least evening) whereas the Locke/bullet scene was clearly night, which doesn’t seem to add up.
    .
    However, I haven’t rewatched that episode yet so I could be remembering incorrectly, but I’m pretty sure their next jump was at night in the rain to Rousseau’s crew’s arrival.

  • Dave

    @tenderfeet – I honestly don’t remember all of the jumps and what order they were in. I think there were a couple more jumps, then they ended up on the outrigger, and then they jumped to Rousseau’s time.

  • josephnicholas

    I know its nit-picky minutae that isn’t central to the plot, but…

    If Eloise is pregnant with Daniel in 1977 (but not exactly showing) and she kills the 2007 Daniel in 1977 (on the island/Ann Arbor from 1974 to 1977 and presumably aging at a normal rate), then Daniel is 30 when he dies and 19 when Desmond visits him at Oxford in 1996 (in “The Constant”). While, as a prodigy, he may have been at Oxford, either as a student or teacher at a very early age, he is a pretty decrepid/weathered 19 year old (and at least 3-4 years younger than a younger-looking Charlotte).

    The same holds true for Ethan. If he was born in 1977 (while an over-served Horace is unconscious on his couch), then he was only 27 when Charlie shoots him in the fall of 2004. Again, this is a very mature-looking 27 year old.

    For an island that purportedly heals the sick, makes the lame walk, slows (and suspends) the aging process, these two…who were both conicidentally born in 1977…look downright geriatric at their respective times of death.

  • elkaba

    @Dave…”@brfalcon – you actually just explained WHH in a nutshell, along with why the producers chose the WHH time model” So if it’s WHH all the way, then isn’t it time to bring back the numbers and what they mean in the context of attempts to alter events?
    Couldn’t the numbers be specific points in a countdown, and be the mysterious “values” that Dharma believes must changed to avoid total destruction of everything?
    Occam’s razor is still insisting to me that Richard doesn’t age because he’popping around in time, but why? And aren’t there are multiple parties doing this. Some trying to change the numbers/values (Dharma, O6), some trying to protect the sequence (Richard/?), knowing it’s a countdown to The Event, which they find preferable to the alternative, ie total destruction, which they somehow think/know will happen if Jack succeeds in setting off the bomb? (Of course, that would mean he does succeed in stopping Jack, preserving the layers of a double closed loop, and dooming everyone to endless repetitions of the same events…forever.)
    Has anyone suggested the thing released/disturbed, etc in the Event is anti-matter?

  • brfalcon

    first, i just want to say that if the incident were to happen, do we think the crew in 1977 will be returned to 2007 or actually die? they wouldnt go into anti matter would they? its just to much explanation and makes no sense, as anti matter would negate matter, but the island itself still seems to be whole in 2007, unless this is the change that we need to undo the crash. But i think the bigger and more interesting idea, rather then the “Why bother is WHH and your just showing us how it all starts?” is what if Daniel made a change? what if jack actually undoes it? what happens to the O6 and the rest of the crew that joined up with the DI? and is Charles trying to go back to the island? or like Locke some how destroy a part of it? or, are they trying to release the whole of the islands energy? what if the explosion isn’t meant to negate the incident, but exacerbate it? wouldn’t that kind of work out in his head? make the whole world free from time, be able to heal, create a utopia that he and few others could understand? I’m just spit balling here but they could do anything with it so why not think it.

  • ethanrom

    Is it just my imagination or have several commenters given the SotS folk credit for putting the bullet in Locke’s leg. If I remember correctly, it was Ethan who shot JL in a near past episode before he flashed to the (present) Richard Alpert future and subsequent closing of the compass loop.

  • lostepic

    First: I am, really, really, really, upset that its Faraday is dead. If the producers only took him away to bring him back for one episode to get killed so that he can be the catalyst in propelling the show forward, I say, balderdash, not cool, and I shake my fist in furious anger in the air. I love his character and as I have said before it just doesn’t seem right to take such a character that seems to have more depth that we have yet to see and have him missing for the majority of the season and then bring him back, reinstitute our love for the character then kill him, only to propel plot or for a stupid closed loop theory, no.
    I am a little against the closed loop theory. It can make sense but in metaphysics it has flaws and as well I consider it sort of a cop out if your going to use it so much that its apart of the narrative. I really think that Jack will either fail or his actions will do something else and not prevent the crash. Not to mention Faraday was wrong. He said that preventing the incident will prevent the Swan being built. Not so Danny. The Swan, as indicated before, was built to study the electromagnetism but “due” to the incident the Swan’s purpose was shifted to the monitoring of the energy surge and pushing the button to discharge the build up. If you remember in season 2, the cement pour in the swan station appeared to have been poured after the swan was built. There is a door and the cement is crudely poured over it. So the swan will be built and who knows when an incident will occur. If the incident is not independent on how it occurs and all non-essential staff are off island and they cease experiments in the swan then the incident won’t happen when faraday says it would but it could later.
    .
    I will agree that I was a little taken back, when Richard said to Ben that he wasn’t sure he liked the new Locke etc…. Richard being surprised at Locke being alive and wanting to see Jacob wasn’t a concern for me its his surprise at Locke’s assertiveness. We have always seen Richard in a good light, sort of, when it comes to his relationship with the Losties. He is after his goals as to what he sees is in the best interests of the Island but, it appears, that he is willing to sit down and listen to others concerning the matter and give them the benefit of the doubt.
    Chang interrogating Hurley. Priceless! ‘Lost’ history.
    .
    Ok. We don’t know what sawyer told them, or where he told them to go. Second what’s with Radzinsky? In the ‘sawyer beat down’, Radzinsky tried or did put Chang and Horace in their place. “You’re not in charge I am.” Etc… What does Radzinsky do exactly, what is his position? All we know is that he was working getting the swan station set up, is he security? If he is, the DI’s main man would have superiority over him regardless, i.e.: Chang or Horace.
    The sub scene was definitely look way too much like a CGI shot. Lost has done a decent job, but that was sad.
    .
    Kate! Standing her ground. Yes it seems she can’t stick with something and is always vacillating. But now she was standing for neither man but for what “she” sees as the right thing to do. And prevent all the misery that happened? Jack how naive are you? Before 815 took off all of our core characters were in misery and a good portion if not all on their way to continued misery. Save for the people that actually died what does he think he is going to prevent? And Sayid. I thought he shot Ben because he thought if their was no Ben then Rousseau’s baby, Season 3 and the polar bear cages, taking Walt perhaps, no fertility stuff, so no Claire abductions. But what killing lil’Ben would never do, would be prevent the 815’ers from crashing on the Island. I say Sayid really tried to kill Ben so that Ben would suck Sayid into the cloak and dagger stuff off-Island and therefore possibly save Nadia. So Sayids actions were selfish not noble. While he did have remorse in that scene, as I have said in earlier posts, and was reluctantly accepting who he was, he was not acting in right action. Not to mention Kate would want to prevent the crash because, your know, being in handcuffs and everything, and post Island is free from it, loved Aaron and Jack at one time, and is now back on Island. Jack is off his rocker.
    I agree there is a possibility that the Island is using Locke but I don’t think he is a sap for not wanting to get his people back and killing Jacob. Did he give his reasons for not wanting to? No he didn’t. The Island told him where and what for all we know it is yet to be revealed that the Island told Locke what the rest of the ’77 losties get back and Locke has other issues to deal with and is trusting that it will work out. As for the comment of the man of science and faith, I can see Locke being faith and Jack science in this episode but not in the actual episode that was title such. I always saw Locke struggling, in that previous episode, between science and faith and when I heard others say “jack is science and Locke faith” and then hear Locke say it I thought they were right until I heard the commentary and the writer/producer stated my perspective was the intention. It just goes to show that there are all sorts of possible meanings and purposes in the show some are with out question wrong and with out question right and other are in the gray, a little of both.
    .
    We can safely assume that Locke is not a false leader/pharaoh. The Island resurrected him and enlightened him to things. Who makes the rules? The Others or the Island. If it’s the Island, the Island is aware of it and even pressed into Ben that he should follow Locke, hence telling Locke Richard was upset with Locke. If it’s the others rules, who cares what they think it’s what the Island thinks that’s important. I am sorry for my poor grammar and pronouns/nouns usage. It’s early.
    .
    @covelebm: agree they need to set the record straight. However, I think what the producers are doing is that they know we are speculating, due to a lack of information, and so they are having the characters speculating. The characters don’t always have the answers and don’t always know what the right thing to do is. They can be wrong. Just because Faraday says this in one season then says he was wrong, do you doubt everything he says because he admits he was wrong and is now saying something contrary?
    I will say this when Ben was telling Sun who Richard was, my first thought was, “yes. She never met him doesn’t know him and had no opportunity to hear of him.” We always are looking and trying to remember who knows what due to characters being all over the map and plot.
    @Elkaba: I like the idea that Richard is jumping but that would mean that 50’s, 70’s, 90’s, 07’s etc… Richard is jumping in time in sequence of the world’s actual timeline due to the fact that every encounter he has is dependent on his past which is consistent with the world’s. 50’s Richard knew nothing of Locke etc… Richard isn’t jumping. He is just ageless.
    .
    Locke wasn’t instructing Richard to instruct himself. Remember Ben asked Locke how he knew when and where. “The Island told me” This has to be true, because injured Locke only knew that he was in a time when the beachcraft was on the ground. No indication if it was post or pre off-Island.
    .
    The Island instructed Locke to Instruct Richard to instructed Locke.
    @Matt. Yes and no on the time theory. Are saying the whole thing is a loop, as in the universe/time/world theory? I’ve heard this theory before, but in regards to the show and it’s story it doesn’t work in my mind. The Island seems independent but it appears to not be doing and instigating action for the purpose to contain a close loop system. The Island is a character and thus far we have be led to believe a character that knows a whole lot more than anyone and has a purpose in mind and that its not to maintain a closed loop system, hence Desmond upsetting the rules.
    .
    What do the Others do. The DI experimented, but what does the Others do? Just live? There has to be more to it, hence the runway on the Hydra Island for the Ajira plane. But Ben wasn’t aware of the plane, was he? I think he was told by Jacob who is really either the Island or the man behind the curtain “Richard”
    .
    The music on Lockes trek to Jacob was great. It’s the same music that we had on the other exodus, moving to the hatch, and to the radio tower, but now with different mood to it, deeper horns. I had a real sense that the theme was familiar in purpose but new in method.
    .
    I was just contemplating back on a previous episode of who was shooting at the 77’ losties when they were on the canoe, it’s the SotS. I wanna see that scene from their point of view.
    .
    @madmatt86: I too totally thought Locke was going to point out Richard as the infamous Jacob. Yeah if the producers know whats good for them they will save Richards secert self for the later part of next season.

    .
    Hey, what’s with the so called new episode that’s nothing but filler next week? The fillers only aid new viewers. I don’t like them now but it was a filler like the “O6” that sucked me into Lost mid season 3, so I guess I can’t complain too much.
    .
    @dave: I am on the “jacks actions whether success or failure result in the incident and propel them to present time” boat too.
    .
    sorry for the long comment. I cant alwasy comemnt on time and want to respond to certian ideas.

  • lostepic

    @Tom: Where do we see Christian operate in Atlantis era? Assumptions is it.
    @Tom Shaw: Locke was shot by Ethan. The SotS are in present time and Locke was shot before the beachcraft fell and before Ethan was killed by my man charlie. and then time jumped to present time to have the bullet taken out by present time Richard.
    Electromagenitism is the main energy discussed in the show, but it wouldnt be beyond the show to have antimatter. As for Richard. If he knew beforehand what Jack had in mind then he looked convincingly shocked at the idea.
    I agree that if the endgame is the closed loop theory adn that everything is only about that then thats crap. But I dont think that it is. Because if it was then you have to look at each season independenly and objectively. I started in the series late. But am a fanatic ever since I started watching, mid season 3 and caught up over a school break. But if you look at the tone, mood, themes, pace, and plot, the close loop doesnt fit. Each season has to have an individual plot that is a subplot of the overall story that the producers wrote before the beginning of the show. It just doesnt fit and would eventable ruin the show as a whole.
    But if the the closed loop only ends with. The plane doesnt crash and the 815ers land in LA and thats it. THen thats crap too. Great journey that ended in returning to the misery that the characters were in. If its about characters and progression and growth and the Island is interested in such things as well then I would think its safe to assume that the Island won’t allow Jack succeed “in the way he wants to anyway”. If the Island and prevent Micheal from dying than it can prevent Jack from preventing the 815 crash. Not to mention its pretty selfish, I mean what about the Others, or DI or other Others(SotS)? They have lives and purposes too. Jack the impulsive selfish jerk who thinks he knows whats best for everyone.
    .
    I think someone pointed out that Eloise and Charles were living based on the knoweldege given in the past by our “time travelers”. That makes sense to explain why Eloise now doesnt know whats going on or whats going to happen. But it doesnt account for being suprised that ben would nudge Charles off Island, unless Charles was playing the part to he had a ligitamite reason to be pushed off Island. Because if Charles hired Daniel is possible that Widmore is mentioned in the journal.
    .
    as for the ages of people. The damage to Faraday not only affect his mind but could have advaced his age or affect his body. When people live hard lives you can see it on their faces and they tend to look a little older than they really are. As for Ethan. Actors tend to play roles younger than themselves, there are exceptions, but that is whats common. Ethan looks at most early 30′s and if you are saying that he is 27 but looks 35, whats 8 years? I think we can shrug that off. its not like Hurleys response.

  • shara says

    When Richard was telling Sun that all the 1970s Losties died in front of him, did he say specifically what happened? Could he just have seen them get sucked into the Incident explosion, where they vanished (and got zapped somewhere else without him realizing?), or did he say something specific about how they died (shot in front of him, or something)?

  • lostepic

    @shara: Richard said “yes I saw them die right in front of me.” bam. enter: reveal music. exit scene: enter commercial. He didn’s say specificaly how they died or what he saw. Its quite possible that he was under the impression that they died and in reality they were, as I have been saying, restored to the present timeline cause by the incident which was possible caused by Jack.
    .
    Time Travel side note. notice no one ever jumped further than they ever currently existed. The past? yes. their past? yes. the Islands? Yes. but never the future. nothing after present day losties where Locke and Co. are.

  • Dave

    @lostepic – That’s not entirely true. The time jumpers were still effectively living around New Years 2005 (I think Locke said they had been jumping for 4 days, but I’ll just use NY2005 as a point of reference), but they were jumping ahead to 2007/2008 (have we established when exactly we are in the “30 years later” period?).

  • lostepic

    @Dave. what are you refering to?, The jumps increased and there was no real way to know how long they were jumping. You can count them but not know exactly when the time is. where do you get new years 2005?

  • Dave

    @lostepic – Based off Lostpedia’s timeline, the Island disappeared on Day 100: December 30, 2004. I honestly forget why I’m thinking 4 days (I seem to recall Locke saying something along those lines), but they definitely weren’t jumping for 3 years.

  • natego

    @lostepic. .. Richard said “I watched them die.” He never said “right in front of me”

  • gnatalby

    I loved the exchange between Hurley and Dr. Chang!

    I’ve also noted that Miles does a thing I’ve noted in actors(http://theboozetube.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/yes-no-maybe-so/) where he shakes his head “no” when issuing affirmative statements.

  • namastizzle

    There is no compass paradox, as I wrote over at sepinwall (where the compass debate has taken on epic proportions):

    “it is the same compass, what it actually is is the same compass at two different ages existing at the same time (kinda like Miles)

    Here’s how I make it:

    Compass A – Richard buys a compass in 1997.
    Compass A – Richard gives it to Locke in 2007.
    Compass A – Having time travelled, in 1954, Locke gives this ten year old compass to Richard.
    Compass A – 40 years later in 1997, Richard still owns this now-rusty compass, but buys a new, shiny one. The same compass, one younger one older.
    Compass A – 10 years later, Richard gives the shiny (younger) compass to Locke.
    Compass A – 2017 – Richard still owns this now 70 year old compass.

    It’s easier to think of it as an organic thing:

    So a kid is born in 1997, in 2007 he goes back in time to the fifties. By 2007, he’s 60-odd. Simuntaneously, his 10 year old self goes back to the fifties, while the 60 year old keeps aging.

    So actually it is one compass, it’s just the compass comes into existence at the same time as it’s 50-year old self exists alongside it. I think you think its a paradox because you assume it has to be created before 1954.”

  • lostepic

    @Dave: thanks, I tend to do a good job keeping track without rewatching or looking it up on lostpedia, but I admit I was fuzzy on what was said.
    @natego: yeah. thanks. either way Richard, present day, is under the impression that either they are dead, or he knows things that them dying wasnt the end, and if he didnt he may be pondering that now that he sees Locke resurrected.
    .
    Speaking of resurrection is it safe to assume that Richard knows nothing about Christian? We have never seen them talk or Richard mention him.

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