Tuned In

Lostwatch: There's a New Sheriff in Town

ABC
ABC

SPOILER ALERT: Before you read this post, turn off The Muppet Show on your monitor and watch Lost. 

 

We’re at the time of the Lost season when it tends to be given over to getting-there-from-here episodes. “Namaste” was certainly one of those, setting up the dynamics for the Lostaway Reunion Tour ’77 as it goes forward. The most satisfying, for those of us who tended to get, shall we say, rubbed the wrong way a bit by Jack, was seeing Sawyer assert his authority as alpha dog in trying to get the crew out of their predicament. 

As leader before the Oceanic 6′s escape, “You pretty much just reacted. … You didn’t think,” Sawyer tells Doc. “I’m going to think. Because that’s how I saved your ass today.” Pretty harsh. And pretty true, no? I mean, to be fair, Jack did prove himself capable of strategizing and taking the time to contemplate a plan (as when he allied with Juliet in season 3). But it often backfired, and he would do it an a high-handed Doc-knows-what’s-best-for-you manner (see same example). 

Jack, for his part, comes back to Sawyer that he did get the Six off the Island. Sawyer does not say—as Ben did in another context—”And how did that work out for everyone?” He doesn’t need to. 

Meanwhile, we learned how ben joined the ranks of the injured Ajira passengers, as Sun proves herself a bigger badass with an oar than with a gun, and heads back to Otherton with Frank (who pulls a Sully bringing the flight down on the runway that Kate and Sawyer helped build. They meet Probably-the-Ghost-of-Christian, who tells them they’re thirty years away from where they need to be. He doesn’t suggest how to get there. Ghosts are difficult that way. 

Meanwhile: Sayid in jail. Daniel—somewhere. Jack getting ready to scrub Dharma toilets. Pieces in place. I’m glad it’s only March. We’ve got 30 years to go. Can we get there in two months? 

With that, the hail of bullets:

* The other bombshell, though ABC has prromoted the hell out of it already, was the return of Young Ben. Excellent piece of casting. It’s not just a matter of slapping wire-rimmed glasses on Sterling Beaumon; he’s also got down the pursed lips and Michael Emerson’s habit of nervous swallowing as Ben. I don’t know if I’d eat that sandwich.

* One other interesting bit about Sawyer: his line that his colleagues need to get to Jack et al., “before they screw up everything we got here.” Just how native has Sawyer gone?

* Fortunately, Sawyer is not too responsible to be funny now: “Well, I appreciate your input there, Quick Draw.”

* Odd that Christian proved to Sun that Jin is not in 1977 by showing her a picture of a recruits photo that he was not in.

* I continue to love how well the show depicts the hippies-out-of-time culture of Dharma, down to playing “Ride Captain Ride” at the recruits’ welcome party. 

* You did notice The Muppet Show playing on the monitor bank, right? (Mrs. Tuned In had to point it out to me while I was typing notes.) I guess whatever time-space warp affects the Island doesn’t prevent it from getting live satellite broadcasts. 

* So Radzinsky was busy designing the Swan station, where he would ultimately work (and paint the ceiling with his brains). I don’t believe we knew previous when it was built, but it contained a 1980 film by Pierre Chang / Marvin Candle, which referenced that its purpose had been changed after “the incident.” Are we going to be seeing The Incident this season?

*Baby Ethan! He’s so cute when he’s pre-murderous!

[Update: Oh, bonus question, which I forgot to add but was reminded of by Cultural Learnings: Why was Sun the only O6-er not Raptured back to 1977?]

Related Topics: lost
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  • jimmycrack

    Dependably excellent episode. I think the most intriguing elements over the next few episodes are what the Losties do with their knowledge of the Dharma future (do they warn them? do they kill teen Ben?), and what does Ben’s knowledge of the Losties in the ’70s imply for what’s happened in Seasons 2 through now.

  • natego

    Gotta try to keep my streak alive as first poster..
    .
    - interesting how Ben is not the only survivor of the Dharma initiative (i.e Ethan).
    .
    - We can pretty much think that Jack has some important interaction with Ben’s Dad as a Workman.
    .
    - Why is keeping the plans of the Swan station from the “hostiles” so important ??
    .
    - I loved the outfits they gave Hurley, Kate, and Jack. funny stuff.
    .
    - When is Sun and Frank?? It looks like they are there very soon after the Purge since all the Dharma signage is still there.
    .
    - I thought the end of the episode was pretty lame. It was so ridiculously obvious that the kid coming in was Ben. They dragged it out and tried to make a big reveal out of it.. it fell waaaayyy flat.

  • natego

    Dangit!! #2!!!!

  • natego

    @jimmy.. I think thats a good point about Ben’s knowledge of the Losties.. perhaps he had a premonition of their arrival or was told ahead of time..

  • natego

    actually more likely, Ben was told by Richard that he is going to be the leader of the Hostiles so Ben takes it upon himself to “look after” the latest captured hostile (Sayid) by bringing him food and speaking with him. Ben Linus: leader-in-training.
    .
    Sorry for the multiple posts.. I’ll be quiet now!!

  • jimmycrack

    Sun and Frank were in ~2008. The intertitle card said ’30 years later’. And I agree that teen Ben would have a strong interest in any potential ‘Hostile’, considering that he’s a Hostile-in-training.

    I’m wondering if one of the Losties doesn’t clue Ben into his future on the island. The only person devious enough to do something like that would be (maybe) Miles…?

  • natego

    If they were in 2008, why did the gym room have all the Dharma signs hanging on the ceiling? Or am I mixing up what room they were in? In the 2008 scenes of Othertown, those signs were long gone.

  • Dave

    I’m going to preface my comments by saying this: I don’t like being wrong. I really don’t like being wrong. And this episode showed I was wrong on a lot of things. There are a lot of things that I really didn’t like, and I’m trying to figure out if I don’t like them because they prove me wrong, or if I don’t like them because they leave an uneasy feeling in my gut lore-wise.
    `
    First: James touched on it, that Sun was the only O6er to not go back. Does this mean the Island really is malevolent? The only one with a real reason to go back is stuck there? So the Island screws with them all and sends all the people back that will cause conflict?
    `
    Second: The 2008 New Otherton has some huge implications. In season 3 (late 2004), New Otherton didn’t have any DI signs up or anything. What we saw in 2008 didn’t necessarily look more than 3 years abandoned (it’s kind of hard to tell… is that 3 years or 13 years of dust built up?), but it seemed very clear that the 2008 they were in was one without Others living in New Otherton. Did Ajira 316 also flash into a freaky the-producers-said-they-wouldn’t-make-paradoxes parallel universe? So much for whatever happened happened.
    `
    Third: My timeline theory was straight up wrong (Losties get there, Incident happens, Losties leave, Ben arrives). That doesn’t leave a bad feeling in my gut. I just don’t like being wrong :)
    `
    Fourth: Along with point 2, the implications of Losties being able to influence Ben is huge. Did this somehow shift into Back to the Future mode?
    `
    I’m trusting that the producers will pull us out of this, but this episode did nothing to quell my recent fears of, “What if season 6 is terrible?”
    `
    Side note: wasn’t Jack’s name called before Juliet arrived with the updates to the roster and manifest? Or did Juliet add Jack (with the sense of humor of making him a Workman), but not have time to add Kate at the same time? I’m also curious what job Hurley has :)
    `
    @natego – Not only will Jack apparently rub shoulders with Roger, but we don’t really know at what age Ben starts his Workman career. If we’re going off actor age (which is probably the simplest solution), Ben’s probably been on the Island ~2 years since we saw him meet Richard.
    `
    I’m with the speculation that Ben is absolutely working with the Hostiles. The mustard question was code. He knew right then that Sayid wasn’t a Hostile, and Richard will know something is up. He and Sawyer must have had more meetings, so perhaps Richard is keen on the time travel situation.

  • Dave

    Another side note: anyone who caught the Numbers as Frank was landing the plane gets a nickel. In my mind, that seals the Alternate Universe. Sigh. Well, maybe not alternate universe, but a different world from the one they were in when they left LA.

  • brianunion

    I figured Sun didn’t go back in time because she didn’t return as she left; that is, with the baby inside of her.

  • Tom Shaw

    Not a whole lot of forward momentum, but unlike some episodes in season 4/5, this wasn’t padding, this was setting up the conflicts that are in play in the new setting.

    I’m guessing Daniel isn’t dead, but gone insane again from his experiments/grief.

    Christian 2.0 sure seems just as corporeal as Locke 2.0 – so how’d he get into The Wheel cave?

    The Others are still holed up at The Temple then? Just how big is it?

    I’ve never been much of a Sawyer fan (nor was I a Jack fan – if I was on 815, I would have voted Sayid leader in a second, and still wonder what his character would have been like in the original Lostiverse where Jack got killed in the pilot), but even I have to admit that he is the man – which means his reign is about to come crashing down in four different ways.

    And yes, by now Ben is certainly working for The Others and running recon on fake-Other Sayid. I’m pretty much convinced Ben learns what he needs to make Widmore use The Wheel from the 815ers.

    As far as Sun goes… I think Jin was not supposed to survive the freighter. From Christian appearing on the freighter only once Jin was at a safe distance, to Ben killing Locke once he finds out Jin survived, to Ben’s thinking Sun was the linchpin of getting the 815ers back, all the evidence seems to point out that “Whatever was supposed to happen with Jin… didn’t.”

  • alfredandrew

    Sun did not return because she had Jin’s ring, providing a constant. Or at least that seems to be the suggested idea, as the first scene with Sun back in the beach is one of her playing with the ring.

    One thing I found interesting is that Christian was able to move the photo, proving that he is somewhat corporeal. So back when Locke asked for his help and Christian said no, he could have helped, but decided not to.

    Also, smoky was around before Christian appeared, is there some correlation to this? Is Christian the same as Eko’s brother who could instantly turn into smoky?

  • zfyy04

    How confused I am..

  • walle1

    Concerning Sun not being sent to the 70s, my guess is she did something bad during the 3 years and is no longer considered one of the good guys by the island.
    My first thought when Cristian said she had a journey ahead of her was that she has to redeem her self to the island before she can see Jin.
    I know lapedus was there as well but I’m guessing the island only wanted the oceanic 6(-1) and everyone else is just along for the ride.

  • deepfrieddm

    I saw Kate standing on the porch looking at Sawyer and couldn’t help but yell out “Homewrecker, homewrecker, homewrecker!” Oy. Juliette just can’t catch a break.

    Speaking of which, as much as I don’t want it to be true, do you think Juliette added Kate late as a subtle way of showing her who’s boss (a less than honest mistake, I guess)? Or was it just a way to interview Kate herself instead of having Phil do it? Maybe both?

  • Dave

    @walle1 – Lapidus is there because he was originally supposed to be there. If he had flown 815, theoretically, Smokey never would have killed the pilot (him) in the Pilot.
    `
    @Tom – I don’t think the Others are at the temple in the 2008 we saw. I think they either don’t exist or aren’t being led by Ben (therefore not living in the DI homes). Unless, of course, the Widmorian Others always lived in the temple… then yes, they’re probably at the temple :)

  • emily26

    @alfredandrew i’m thinking the reason sun isn’t back in ’77 has to do with jin’s ring also. they played that up a bit and it makes sense….in a lost kind of “sense” way.

    @Dave i like the mustard as a code idea! i didn’t pick up on that.

  • Matt

    ARG, once again, instead of telling each other everything, Sawyer leaves up in the air what happened to Daniel. I agree with Tom, not dead. As I’ve said before, my guess is he joined the Hostiles… UNLESS that opening scene from “Because You Left” occurred before ’77, and he ended up traveling through time again.
    .
    The biggest mind-bender is when exactly Ajira crashed. The timecard and runway suggest 2007, but then the numbers and the disheveled DHARMA Processing Center suggest both pre-Rousseau and post-Purge (which is impossible, as Rousseau was ’88 and Purge was ’92). Unless the numbers were re-recorded, then that would make sense. But then why would the Others keep the photos of the DHARMA staff from each year and not “redecorate” the Processing Center?
    .
    Sawyer’s smackdown of Jack was pretty neat. Man, he’d been bottling that in for a while, eh?

  • Dave

    The more I think about it, the more it makes sense that what we’re seeing in 2008 is either a Benless Others or a non-Ben-led Others, where they still built the runway, but they didn’t live in the Dharma buildings or use them. I think there was a hat tip in The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham when they showed the old LIFE magazines stacked and gathering dust. The Others we saw used those buildings, so I doubt they’d leave old magazines stacked up.
    `
    “But Dave,” you may ask, “doesn’t that contradict the whole ‘whatever happened happened’ that you’ve been sticking so harshly to?” Yes, it does. And that’s why it ticks me off so much :)

  • Matt

    @Dave – I really like that idea, but I just remembered something that’s something of a monkeywrench – the mercenaries shot up New Otherton. THAT’S probably why everything is in such disarray. So, ultimately, I think things just progessed normally. And the magazines were probably just kept around because… it’s sometimes fun to read old magazines?

  • shara says

    Wow. Did y’all see Jacks eyes go COMPLETELY INSANE when Sawyer alpha-dogged him? He was twitching like a tweaker. It was like he showed up and expected Sawyer to update him on the past 3 years so that Jack could take back over and be The Decider again. I much prefer Sawyer and his methods to Jack and his methods, so it was extremely satisfying. Jack is such a control freak I can’t imagine him just falling into line for a plan that he didn’t personally contrive, and taking orders from Sawyer – so now I’m worried that Jack is gonna do something to screw things up for Sawyer on general principle, because Jack backed into a corner is a dangerous thing. Those crazy eyes really got me – both actors did fantastic in that scene.
    .
    So – since the baby was Ethan, I’m thinking that that’s another point for the “what happened happened the first, second, and only time around” theory – if Sawyer et al hadn’t been back in the past, hadn’t saved Amy, and if Juliet hadn’t saved the baby, Ethan never would have been born. On the other hand, I hadn’t caught that there might have been substantive changes in future Otherton – I’m looking forward to going home and watching the episode again tonite. It does make me wonder about the “list” that the Others had back in earlier seasons – was that the “list” of people who Ben knew had been in the past at some point? I re-watched the whole series some months ago, but still can’t remember the exact context of list references.
    .
    Poor Juliet. I did feel a little more sympathetic towards Kate this episode with all the sad staring at Sawyer, but I’ve officially suspended my Kate-Sawyer Shipper status until the point at which Juliet dies. At which point I will probably resume said status.

  • Dave

    @shara – I was a Kate-Sawyer Shipper also, until I saw Juliet and Sawyer together. I realized that the only reason I liked Kate-Sawyer and Jack-Juliet was because Kate and Jack are both awful, and Sawyer and Juliet would theoretically keep them from hurting themselves. But then seeing the good characters together just made me want to let Kate and Jack have the forever destructive relationship. Let them go die in a cave a few centuries ago :)

  • archstanton68

    The immediate question that comes to mind is why does Ethan align himself with the Others when they killed his parents (or maybe just his dad). also, the date of his birth makes him 27 when we see him post-crash, which seems too young for the actor, but whatever.
    .
    I also wonder just what Sawyer’s up to. Has he completely gone straight and given up the con-man life, or is he working another long con for reasons we don’t know yet? I’m guessing he and Juliet have had a lot of interesting talks during their 3 year stay with the DI.

  • shara says

    @archstanton68: “Has he completely gone straight and given up the con-man life, or is he working another long con for reasons we don’t know yet?”
    .
    I think that Sawyer’s Strandaways do, indeed, have an endgame of their own, based on whatever Daniel’s theories of time are. They know that the Incident and the Purge are coming, and they have some sort of understanding of how they’re supposed to position themselves in the meantime. I assumed that’s what Sawyer was talking about when he said “before they screw up everything we got here” – everything they ‘got’ is a path through the madness ahead.

  • natego

    Regarding Sun.. I like the Ring is constant idea..My original thought was that the island might think that her being back with Jin would distract Jin from the work he has to do in the past to get the course correcting of time to occur. But, it does seem more likely that she is being challenged.
    .
    Regarding the Ajira time zone..it really seems like the original Purge was avoided somehow and the Dharma initiative continued for many years afterwards, and an entirely new purge occurred later in time closer to 2008. I really can’t see those signs still being up unless a new Purge/Incident was much more recent. It really seems that the Losties changed the future from ’77.

  • Chaddogg

    Wow. Lots of great discussion already. Let’s jump right in…
    .
    1) Why did Sun/Ben/Frank not jump back to the 1970s? I think it’s because of the “role” each was playing in the Ajira 316 recreation of Oceanic 815. As the episode played up extensively, Sun is a wife with her husband’s ring, who ends up after the crash separated from her husband but sure he’s alive. Sound familiar? Yep, Sun has become Rose, separated from Jin as Bernard, only Sun is separated from Jin by time, while Rose was separated from Bernard by space. Frank was playing the pilot — and as we all know, the pilot didn’t last long with the Losties, so he’s not back in 1977. That just leaves Ben….who does he represent on the original Oceanic 815 flight?
    .
    2) Kate-Juliet tension: Yes, I think there was some tension there. But I think the real reason Kate was almost caught as not being on the list is simpler. Amy told Juliet that two volunteers had backed out — it was probably simple to add Jack and Hurley as those two that dropped out (two who no one knew about but Juliet and Amy; if the two that dropped out were men, another reason why Jack and Hurley were picked). Then, Juliet had to do additional work (the “updated” manifest) to add Kate to the list. Sure, this was all probably done to set up the “jealous loves of Sawyer” scene, but there’s your explanation.
    .
    3)The numbers — I caught them, but here’s the really interesting question: didn’t Jack and the Losties shut the numbers off? Wasn’t that how they contacted the freighter at the end of season 3? If Ajira crashed in 2007 (3 years after Oceanic 815 crashed there), who turned the numbers back on? And why?
    .
    4) Young Ben — I agree, it was kind of a weak reveal. But how does Sawyer (as head of security) not know about young Ben? Or does he? Also, I agree — it’s interesting that Ethan is a Dharma kid, which means Ethan must defect, join the Others, and help Ben with the Purge. Unless….
    .
    Here is the theory that will really cook your noodle (and infuriate Dave): the past has already been altered. When Sawyer and Kate “saved” Amy, they prevented what was “supposed” to happen — the kidnapping of Amy by the Others so that she could have “Ethan” with them. I’m not saying I buy this (I don’t dig the idea of time being changed all that much), but that could explain how baby Ethan comes to be part of the Hostiles/Others crowd with Ben.

  • natego

    @shara.. I disagree. Sawyer has always maintained that he wants to stay on the island permanently. I think he is comfortable with his pretty woman, in is comfy house, with a job that he gets to kick butt in and he doesn’t want it to end.

  • shara says

    Anyone else think that Sayid is going to try and kill little kid Ben at some point soon?

  • natego

    Something else REALLLY bothered me in this episode.. Sawyer is the HEAD OF SECURITY, but he can’t get 5 minutes ALONE with Sayid to talk it out???? Is this Radzinski guy really so important that can’t command him to leave for a minute?????

  • Dave

    @Chad – Rousseau turned the Numbers off. That, the evidence out of the Hydra, and the evidence of New Otherton, make me think we’re in a separate “present” (2008) timeline than the one we’ve watched for 5 and a half seasons. Yes, it does infuriate me, because the producers have said multiple times that they don’t like paradoxes and that they’re using a specific model of time (whatever happened happened). Grrrr. :)
    `
    Re: Ethan – we know that the Others take children and babies to give them the good life. Is that something that was new when Ben was leader, or was it a time-honored tradition? I think they’ve always taken good people to live the Other life.

  • Matt

    @shara – obvi!
    .
    @chad – I don’t know about the Amy kidnapping thing. After all, he’s Horace’s son too (it’s not like she was already pregnant). So if she had gone and joined the hostiles in ’74, any kid she would have would not have been Ethan, because there would have been a different father.
    .
    Which leads me to my next point: in LeFleur, it’s said that DI folks always give birth off-island. Why is that? And do the Hostiles have the same obsession with babies/kids in the 70s as they did in the 00s? Because if that’s so, I’m guessing that Ethan will not stay with Amy & Horace for long. Alex was taken from Rousseau shortly after being born; the Zack & Emma were taken just shortly after landing. Aaron was attempted early, and Walt was taken pretty quickly as well. The Others/Hostiles don’t let kids remain on the Island for long without taking them.
    .
    Interesting tangent, why do the stolen babies keep the names given to them by their birth-parents? We know this was the case with Alex, and if my hunch about Ethan is right, him too.

  • archstanton68

    @ shara…I don’t think Sayid will try to kill Ben immediately, but I can see him try to manipulate young Ben to get himself out of Dharma jail, which will unintentionally lead to/assist Ben’s ascension to power.

  • shara says

    @Chaddog: “When Sawyer and Kate “saved” Amy, they prevented what was “supposed” to happen — the kidnapping of Amy by the Others so that she could have “Ethan” with them.”
    .
    Wow I hadn’t even thought of that. Great idea, dude!!!
    .
    @natego – I see what you’re saying, and that may be so. He’s got a relatively comfy existence where he gets to be a hero and a con artist at the same time, with a pretty lady and being treated with respect and all that, with the other alternative being possibly killed or shipped back to the mainland without identities or anything. But Sawyer is also really smart, and a good strategic thinker, and he knows that disaster is coming in the future – that he can’t hang on to his comfy life forever, and that the people he’s protecting will all be in danger. Its hard for me to see him not thinking a few steps ahead – especially with that throwaway comment about Daniel’s ideas about the rules. However, I also couldn’t fathom the possibility that Sun wasn’t a spooky ninja some weeks back, because I was sure her character would be two steps ahead, and I was wrong there too. . .

  • Dave

    I wonder if Radzinski is Daniel’s father.

  • neen86

    @Shara:”Anyone else think that Sayid is going to try and kill little kid Ben at some point soon?”
    I could see him using him as a pawn for some greater purpose at least. I’m not sure killing him would be in his best interest, particularly at this point. Plus, I selfishly hope he wouldn’t. He’s one of my favorite characters and I’m not sure I would like him too much if he started killing kids, even if they are Benjaminm Linus. :)
    Overall, loved the episode. It was excellent to see Jack put in his place and for him to accept it, for now, anyway…

  • Chaddogg

    By the way — did anyone else get a sinister vibe off that one security dude who caught Jack going to visit “James LaFleur” and told him not to call him James? Did Jack trip up and use the wrong first name? Is that guy suspicious of Jack/Sawyer? Or was that meant to be a wink at the audience regarding Sawyer’s constant use of his last name as a first name?

  • shara says

    @Chaddog – was that the Patrick Fischler character? Cause I’m definitely getting a sinister vibe from him – particularly after the Kate thing at intake – dude definitely seemed suspicious.

  • Matt

    @ Chad – I think it’s a trip up, and the guy’s suspicious, ’cause Sawyer goes by Jim.

  • natego

    @Chad, I think he’s suspicious because he feels strongly or knows for a fact that Sawyer never would have told Jack (a new recruit he just met) his first name. He knows something is up because of this.

  • squally12

    @Dave: Hurley’s outfit said “Chef.” I guess he did know his way around the Dharma-brand food, so it’s a good fit.

  • murdoc829

    I like the ideas being floated re. why Sun (and Ben and Frank) didn’t zap back in time. There’s:
    ~
    1) The wedding ring is Sun’s constant.
    2) Sun = Rose in the crash-redux scenario, so she has to be separated from her hubby for awhile.
    3) Sun turned bad and has to redeem herself before the Island will reward her with Jin.
    4) Jin wasn’t supposed to survive the freighter explosion (though how that keeps Sun in the present I don’t know).
    5) Sun got a get-out-of-time-jump-free card when Locke promised not to bring her back.
    ~
    Another theory I read somewhere that I like is that Ben and Sun didn’t go back because they already exist on the Island in 1977 (Ben as a DI kid and Sun as a visitor . . . her dad is tied into all of this somehow, after all). This might also explain why Charlotte had to die. But it would mean that Miles can’t be Marvin Candle’s baby, and it doesn’t explain why Frank didn’t go back and the other freighties did, nor does it explain why Sun wouldn’t remember visiting an island full of jumpsuit-clad folk as a little girl. So I don’t think this theory actually works — which is a shame, because it’s nice and neat, without the strained over-explain that might otherwise be necessary. Anyone got a way to make it fit?
    ~
    Total side note:
    ~
    Did anyone else, when Frank asked Sun why she clocked Ben with the oar, half-expect her to reply, “Never trust Ben”? I mean, I love that she uses Ben’s signature line (“I lied”) instead, but it still would have been change-your-pants awesome.

  • Chaddogg

    Here’s a question for everyone — in 1977, what Dharma stations were built, and which were still in planning/construction mode?
    .
    Radzinsky was at the Flame, and mentioned the Looking Glass last night. The Swan station hasn’t been built based on Radzinsky still working on the model and saying its location was secret. The Staff (the medical station where Claire was taken) is a question mark. The Arrow (where the Tailies gathered) was mentioned in the Swan’s orientation video, so either it is completed or in the process of being completed. The Pearl seems to be the security place where the “hootenanny” was happening in LaFleur. The Orchid (time travel wheel) was being built when Faraday was in the 1970s past based on the season opening episode. The Hydra (other island zoo station) is an unknown in 1977, but presumably it was built because it houses magazines from the 1950s, I think. And the Tempest (the toxic gas place) — well, I have no clue on whether it was built yet or not.

  • Chaddogg

    Here’s another spookyish thought — if Sun didn’t travel back to the 1970s because she didn’t adequately embody an Oceanic 815er, did Hurley getting on the plane as Charlie (i.e. with guitar, etc.) affect his future destiny? Will he have to “die” a la Charlie to get them off the island?
    .
    (Seriously, if they kill Hurley, I’m not sure I’ll be able to forgive them.)

  • archstanton68

    @ Chaddogg – It sounds like the Arrow is already in operation. I also re-watched “LaFleur” last night and when the night shift guys are watching monitors in the Pearl they mention polar bears and cages, so presumably the Hydra is operational in 1977. We also heard from the Looking Glass when Radzinsky is checking on any plane sightings. It’s possible that the Swan is the last to be built and is the only incomplete station in the 1977 timeline that we saw.

  • Chaddogg

    @archstanton68: Well, the Swan is definitely incomplete, but the Orchid and Tempest are also up for grabs as to whether they are operational.
    .
    By the way, did anyone see the creepy WOMAN behind Sun at the end of her scene with Christian? http://s5.tinypic.com/szc0ux.jpg
    .
    Who is that?

  • Matt

    she looks blone, maybe claire?

  • archstanton68

    @Chaddogg: You’re right on those 2. I suppose that the status of the Orchid is dependent on when Faraday’s scene there was set. I imagine we’ll get more info on that in future Daniel-centric episode.
    .
    The Tempest is kind of a mystery. it’s been used and mentioned sparingly so far. I’m not expecting to find out much about anytime soon.
    .
    BTW, this discussion reminded me of a complaint I had with the episode. Radzinsky’s reaction to Sayid potentially knowing the Swan’s location was odd. Did he really think they’d be able to undertake an excavation/construction project that massive and NOT have the hostiles notice? once the first crew goes out to start construction (which appears to be soon), the secret will be exposed.

  • Dave

    Re: stations – I don’t think they’re in the Pearl. The Pearl is in the woods with 9 monitors set up in a grid. We’ve seen other monitoring places (the Hydra), and it looks like they’re just using another. The Pearl is where the psychological experiments were being done on the subjects.
    `
    I haven’t seen a better image of the woman behind Sun yet. It looks from that one like it’s Charlotte, based on the hair, but it’s hard to say without a better screen cap.

  • Tom Shaw

    Err, Dave, your whole belief that they are in an alternate timeline is just because the Numbers are being broadcast? Wouldn’t a far easier explanation be that someone simply switched the tape loop back on? If unimpeded broadcast of The Numbers is one of The Rules, Richard would have been forced to turn it back on anyway once they got (back) to the present (assuming they ever left).
    -
    And yes, it seems like most of the Stations are in operation – but that’s no guarantee that they were being used for their post-Incident purposes in ’77. I pointed out last episode that most of the orientation videos were filmed after the Orchid was built (which probably has to be after The Incident), so there’s no guarantee that they are used for the same reasons pre-Incident.
    Although it is possible that The Incident also functioned as a huge EMP, erasing the old Orientation videos, and thus necessitating filming new videos once the situation calmed down. The point remains that assuming the Station’s purposes are the same throughout the decades is a dangerous move on this show.
    -
    And here’s a thought out of the blue: Ben and Locke landing in ’08 makes sense, because that is where their people are. So what if Sun landed in ’08 because that’s where her people are – Yi-Jeon, and possibly old Jin? Why are we assuming all of the 815ers jump to the present when Widmore uses The Wheel? Hell, hasn’t the show established precedent that that is a bad assumption by showing how many different spots the 815ers ended up in after the other Wheel uses?

  • Dave

    @Tom – the Numbers are one of three things; the other two are the state of New Otherton and the state of the Hydra. Why would the Others assimilate every other building except the 2 we saw in this episode? Why would they leave an old copy of LIFE laying around in the Hydra?
    `
    Those three things together leave me feeling uneasy that everything is as it was, just 3 years after the O6 left.
    `
    Re: Wheel turning. Have we seen an instance where 815ers jump to different times? Are you referring to Because You Left, when Daniel, Sawyer & Co. go to the Swan and see a hole in the ground (post-Day 67), and Locke goes into the Beechcraft, but it isn’t burnt out and isn’t on top of the Pearl hatch (between Days 40 and 50)?

  • shara says

    One thought about Sun to maybe add to the possibilities list of why she’s not in the past – in recreating the circumstances of the original flight, she was NOT at all in the same state as she was originally – on the original flight, she had been wanting to get away from Jin (yeah, she wound up deciding not to run and got on the Oceanic 815 plane, but they were pretty estranged at the time), and it was a near-total reversal this time around, for her to be single-mindedly trying to get back with him. Both times, though, there was some form of estrangement at work, so I dunno, just a thought.
    .
    Re: the sun picture – do we know for sure it is a woman, or is it just because it looks like it has long hair? For some reason, I was thinking Daniel – does anyone know where to find a better screenshot?

  • Dave

    Re: Ajira Alternate Universe – someone on Sepinwall’s blog pointed out (and I facepalmed, because I completely forgot about it) that when the plane was going down, it was night, but after the flash, it was day. So something changed in the flash. The question is what, and how much?

  • shara says

    @Dave – I’d say that was more like Faraday’s rocket experiment – that time just travels differently inside the island’s bubble, or whatever. Like Dead Freighter Doctor washing up on shore a day before Keamy ever cut his throat. Didn’t something like that happen on the helicoptor with Sayid and Desmond, or someone, where it went from day to night all of a sudden? I can’t quite remember. I think that there could have been a time gap of hours, but that the whole 30-year thing would still be basically intact.

  • Dave

    The helicopter took a day and a half to travel a couple hours, if memory serves. And yes, that does make sense, but there are too many little red flags flying up for me to be at ease about it.

  • kyyellowdog

    Interesting explanation for the condition of Christian’s digs in Doc Jensen’s comment section:

    Bob Thu 03/19/09 8:40 AM
    Could it be that Lapidus and Sun are not at the barracks at all, but some other small “town” as Ben called it? Doc noted that Locke and co. bunked there but never noticed the pictures of their friends, and others have said that the Others would have gotten rid of the pictures of Dharma. I’m just wondering if Christian’s building may be one that we have yet to see.

    lostfanatic Thu 03/19/09 8:47 AM
    I think the processing center is near the dock where people land on the island. Its not up at the barracks or “Dharmaville”

    Mr Tibbs Thu 03/19/09 12:15 PM
    Yes, everyone seems to forget this. In the episode where the Barracks/New Otherton/Dharmaville was first shown, it was pretty landlocked, located in the center of a valley. In the episode where we first see young Ben, the processing facilities are in the same area as the dock, add to this last nights comment from Pierre Chang to Jack regarding his “shuttle” driver (from Processing to Orientation facilities) and the decrepitude of the location from dis-use is explained.

  • duvaif

    Hello. First time with this and I didn’t have time to read all the posts, so if I’m being redundant, I apologize. I wanted to add something to the question of “When is Sun and Frank?” I did notice the Dharma signs still up in Otherton, but didn’t the “hostiles” occupy the place after the purge? Which would mean that all the stuff from Dharma was gone, plus when Sun and Frank go there, it does look like it had been in that condition for a long while (dust and cobwebs?). I’m thinking with Sawyer and Co back in ’77, the future was altered so that what we saw this time in ~2008 reflects that and not what originally happened under Ben with the purge. The next couple of episodes I think is going to reveal that fact.

  • Dave

    @kyyellowdog – We know that the Others at least walked past those buildings because that’s where they kept the sub docked. And if the DI stuff was still up, people would have recognized, at the very least, Hurley.
    `
    @duvaif – I agree that what you describe is just about the current state of things. The problem is, the producers have told us that they wouldn’t do time paradoxes. But they’ve given us one heck of a show up until now, so I’m willing to give them the benefit of a doubt.

  • kyyellowdog

    @Dave: “We know that the Others at least walked past those buildings because that’s where they kept the sub docked. And if the DI stuff was still up, people would have recognized, at the very least, Hurley.”

    Ah, yes. Should have known it wasn’t that easy. Thanks!

  • meg7

    Heyy guys,

    lots of new theories and lots of thoughts…
    I want to go home and re-watch last night’s episode.

    I am listening to the latest LOST podcast and it is very interesting..hint- Damon and Carlton talk about the tittle of the season finale…that should make a lot of your theories plausible and possibly answer some questions that we have been having regarding where the season is headed…..the podcast should be available on itunes and ABC site for anyone who is interested.

    btw I loved sawyer putting jack in his place. Jack and his attitude infuriates me.

  • tyrantking

    This goes in the how awesome is Ben file. If Ben met the 815′s when he was a kid, then he already knew them when he met them as Henry Gale. Which would mean he probably already knew how to manipulate them, including knowing about Juliette’s future switch of allegiance. And so while we can talk about what the others may or may not do to young Ben, if all of this has happened before, then Ben knows everything.

  • profdante

    Not much to say about this one that hasn’t already been said (leader Sawyer good; any episode with Lapidus good) so I just want to add the speculation that perhaps the reason why Sun didn’t flash back with the others is somehow related to why Ben seemed so surprised to learn from Locke that Jin was still alive. Clearly, if we believe that everyone has a ‘purpose’ on the island, then Sun/Jin’s purpose has yet to be revealed. Just throwing it out there.

  • tyrantking

    This episode, with the reveal of baby Ethan, I think lends support to the theory that the Island’s baby troubles were caused by the sins of possibly the two worst children ever, Ben and Ethan. Perhaps as voodoo punishment for their having killed their parent’s, they cannot be parents.

  • Matt

    @tyrant – Ethan was no more “evil” than any other Other (except Juliet… always except Juliet). Certainly, he went off the reservation a little, but he was doing the exact same thing as Goodwin.

  • Dave

    So my buddy Dave came up with a totally brilliant, but super cheap, solution to the New Otherton phenomenon: what we saw was more or less an apparition for Sun and Frank to see what the Island needed them to see (a la the burning/moving cabin). I’m not entirely sure if I buy it, but it does resolve the NO phenomenon, which is the root of almost all the inconsistencies (the Numbers are easily explained by someone turning the recording back on, and the Hydra is a weak argument on its own).
    `
    If that’s the way it plays out – and considering that we saw Smokey move ahead of them, and smoke all over the place – I’ll feel a little peeved at the showrunners, but ultimately, I’d rather they use a cheap trick like this instead of demolishing their time model.

  • rize987

    Dave – don’t know if I buy that either, but it would be an explanation on why Christian could pick up that picture but couldn’t help Locke.

  • jimmycrack

    Dave, you’re really hitting this New Otherton thing hard, aren’t you? I don’t see it as a big discrepancy, or a discrepancy at all. It’s true that we saw the induction center separated from the Barracks proper. You seem to believe that the Others would be compelled to destroy any signs of Dharma after the Purge, but they seem to have left the houses and the stations intact. Another way to explain (or explain away) the issue is that since they saw the induction center when smokey and Christian were around, maybe the buildings are like Jacob’s cabin, which seemed to move around quite easily. Maybe Jacob/Christian is showing Sun and Frank the things they need to see.

  • tyrantking

    @Matt – first of all I never said Ethan was “evil”, I totally thought it though, second, it’s pure conjecture on my part that Ethan was in cahoots with Ben in the purge which implicates him in the murder of his own parents. That’s all.

  • natego

    Seems most people think the Woman behind Sun is Claire, haven’t seen it yet, so not sure..
    .
    @murdoc.. Is it possible that Sun is Chang’s baby, which would keep her from being brought back to ’77 (i.e can’t be in the same place twice)? Is it proven that her parents are her biological parents?

  • Dave

    @jimmycrack – the reason it bothers me so much is because the hard line on the model of time that Lost uses has been “whatever happens happens.” If the Losties in ’77 changed things to be different in the present, that’s the butterfly effect. Change something and see repercussions down the line. If the Others had left those DI buildings unaltered, people would have seen the pictures of recruits and recognized Hurley right away.
    `
    The second explanation you offer is exactly what my friend suggested and I described in my post a couple above yours :) It’s a pretty cheap move, to show us something that radically changes the scope of the show, then come back in a week or two and say, “Oh, no, just kidding, it was a fake!”

  • natego

    hahaha BIG WOOPS!!! Changs baby is a dude.

  • antilles13

    I thought that was a good, but not great episode. Did it’s job but not much more. I’ve read through the comments and I’ve only one thing to add, ’cause it slightly bothered me…
    -
    Jack/Hurley’s reaction at first was, “Dharma came back??”, which I think is a very legitimate reaction. Surely, their first response wouldn’t be, “we traveled back in time??” That leads me to Sayid, though, since he’s never been given any explanation about what the hell is happening, or “when” he is (at least not yet – poor guy must be totally confused). Are we really supposed to think his first reaction was that he’d traveled through time – that he’s just going to assume that’s what happened? Because that’s kind of insane, even for the Island. He meets this kid at the end, finds out his name’s Ben, and it just clicks that its Ben Linus? Why would that thought ever occur to him? Sayid must be a hell of a lot smarter than me… It just seems like they forgot a scene/line in there where someone mentions to Sayid that it’s ’77.

  • antilles13

    Oh, and still no confirmation one way or the other on Rose & Bernard? You couldn’t at least give us that?!!?

  • zippychippy

    Yeah, real alpha behavior there by Sawyer. One of them left that exchange swaggering off into the night with a smile on his face and one with a look of deep unease. Jack’s on a mission of his own, and couldn’t care less what job description Sawyer’s got sewn into the pockets of his overalls. It never fails to amuse when one runs across people who have such issues with authority and exercise of the responsibilities that come with it that they’d opt for a Sawyer over a Jack. Yes, trust the hillbilly con. Darwin grows fat on such fatuousness.

  • jimmycrack

    I don’t know, Dave. You’re assuming that the Others would have reason to hang out in the dilapidated, unused induction center and pour over the pictures of the past Dharma freshmen. Given that there were a number of these, and given that Hurley, et al would only be in one of them, it seems not unreasonable that none of the Others would bother looking at them closely. But who knows.

  • meg7

    The others don’t seem like a think for themselves kinda group to me…they are more follow the leader without questions kinda people so it is possible that they would leave it alone if that is what they are told to do….

    I wonder if Sun didn’t come back to the Dharma time because she has “work to do” in Ben and Locke 2008 time and not in Dharma time…..I kind of like a key player like Sun with Lepidus in with Ben and Locke time to mix some things up…..and to stand up to Ben….but I was looking forward to Sun-Jin reunion…..

  • antilles13

    Watching again, I’m not so sure about the general assumption that Ajira 316 landed in 2008 (what I assumed from the Bentham episode, and seemed implied by the “30 years later” screen). Three reasons really, and some of this might have been discussed already: (1) arriving pre-”Others’ takeover of Dharmaville” would ease Dave’s (and my) fears about categorically abandoning the “what happened happened” mantra, (2) the other 316ers saw the flash of light also, and (3) before the flash, 316 was flying at night, while after the flash it was daytime (and along with that, the sudden appearance of the numbers). Three was really the big one – I know Sayid noticed the same issue on the chopper, but this seemed to mirror more the flashes Sawyer and co. were experiencing. I think they’re sometime between the purge and Ben’s takeover of New Otherton.
    -
    @Shara- you mentioned (I think it was you) something about Jack giving Sawyer some evil look after Sawyer alpha-dogged him. I didn’t read it that way at all. Actually, I thought Jack was showing a whole lot of deference throughout the episode. Early on, he asks Kate and Hurley’s opinion on whether to follow Sawyer’s plan – getting input from others on “the plan” was never his strong suit in the past. Also, he seemed almost relieved to let someone else make the decisions for awhile. (I’m on a screen with posts 1-50, but someone in a post just before this mentioned Jack’s wry grin as he walked away from Sawyer, and Sawyer seemed completely miffed by it.) I got the impression between this episode and Jacks transformation during 316 that he’s simply willing to “go with the flow” for awhile and not try to control everything…

  • antilles13

    (I was referring to zippychippy’s comment, which I agree with wholeheartedly. And the Darwin line was nice. :))
    -
    One other thing about 316′s current place in time… The screenshot of “30 years later” could just as easily be a distraction, since all of those characters must assume their in 2008 (except maybe Locke). At the START of their scene they were in 2008, but that doesn’t mean they ended up there – it could just be an attempt to throw us off.

  • antilles13

    okay, I feel like I’m talking to myself now, but whatever.
    -
    I have no explanation for the presence of the runway though.
    -
    This guy has to have forthcoming role, no?:
    http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/a0f3eb7b5904df1f5e5e24a02048a215

  • kyyellowdog

    @antilles: I’m still reading, and appreciate your comments, even though I don’t agree with zippychippy, being an anti-authoritarian myself and resenting the crap out of Jack.

  • archstanton68

    @ antilles: it would be extremely cheap to say it’s 30 years later and then reveal that to have been a lie. I just can’t see the producers doing that to an audience that has already stayed with them through some really weird stuff. we also have to remember the Ajira bottle Sawyer and Juliet found in the outrigger when they flashed several episodes back. they found the lostaways beach camp, apparently abandoned. that strongly implies that they were a couple years post-crash (2004) and that the people doing the shooting were the Ajira passengers. I think we can take it at face value that Sun is, in fact, in late 2007 or early 2008.

  • antilles13

    @archstanton- I hear you. I can’t explain away the runway, or the Ajira bottles now that you mention it. (And looking back through some of the earlier comments, it looks like Dave & Shara went over this already anyway – teach me not to come late to the party). I’m with Dave on being a little pissed if the whole “what happened happened” mantra turns out to be nonsense though.
    -
    The Ajira water bottles do bring up a whole new issue, though, now that you mentioned them. Something had to have changed, if the numbers are now playing again in 2007/08. But that scene with the water bottles showed the beach camp was still there and intact, so it’s not like our Losties now never showed up. I’m confused.
    -
    @kyyellowdog- I get a lot of people don’t like Jack. I really liked Jack from S1, S2 he was okay but a little over-the-top, S3 he was just confusing as hell, and S4 someone needed to smack him, but these last few episodes he seems to be redeeming himself a little. It’d be an interesed LDG question though – just ask people to rank their favorite/least favorite characters – b/c there seem to be a lot of diverse opinions in this group.

  • natego

    Im not sure why people are upset by the “what happened happened” rule being broken… Wasn’t that only a THEORY of Daniel’s?? Was it ever proven or made known that his theory was actually correct???? Maybe he was wrong or was lying???

  • meg7

    @natego
    I think most fans are upset because the “whatever happened happened” thoery has been mentioned by the producers Damon and Carlton as well.

    I think the smokey ahead of Sun and Lepidus as well as the appearance of christian before the otherton means that the island was showing Sun what she needed to see. When I saw the light suddenly come on, it reminded me of Jacob’s cabin. Some one before me mentioned this point as well.

    @shara
    I agree with you in killing young Ben idea. I think at some point one of the 815er’s of Miles may try to kill little Ben. It will be interesting to see who saves him (Since he is clearly present in the future and didn’t die as a child) and how much he will learn about the survivors.

    I think whatever Sawyer and Co. do will probably lead to the incident. As mentioned by people before me I like the idea of the Incident transporting them back to the present/future.

    SPOILER——————-SPOILER ———————————

    The producers mentioned we will be seeing Ethan again this season and not as a child.

    ————————————————————————————————————–

  • natego

    @meg .. Do you know the details of what they said? Did they explicitly say that that is the rule they will be following for good? Or, did they simply discuss it as a concept, involving Daniel’s statements?

  • meg7

    They were talking before Daniel’s statement. They mentioned it in two podcasts, one after “Flashes before your eyes” and one after “The constant”. The producers say they don’t like time paradox and so if characters travel back in time and change the future then the future they came from does not exist and this is a paradox they avoid. However in making a show such a thing is difficult and so as a blanket statement, they said if something happens that could cause the future to change the universe “course corrects” so that the future remains unchanged…..gosh I hope I am making sense.

    In one of the previous recaps I have posted the relevant portions of the transcript.

    I don’t think we are going to see parallel universes or future time lines etc. but of course I could be wrong.

  • meg7

    Sorry for the multiple posts….accidently submitted instead of entering for a new line….
    I like the 12 monkeys time travel…..whatever our survivors did in the past caused things to be as they are in the future, the future then causing the past- I love time loops.
    That is why I think Daniel lost all steam when they happened upon Amy and husband. The “doesn’t matter what you do, whatever happened happened” makes me think that Amy was supposed to be saved by them always and she was supposed to have Ethan…..

    btw I like that Hurley (who was told about the purge by Locke) is in the Dharma period as none of the others know that Ben was a part of the purge….

  • natego

    Heres something though.. Just because Desmond wakes up with a new memory, does that mean the future has changed? All things that had happened still happened, but Desmond only now has a memory. He doesn’t wake up to find himself president of Scotland or something. This is really only changing the past, not the future, he just happened to have the memory in the present. So, Perhaps there is a way to explain any changes in this way?We don’t know if anything was really changed anyway. Also, if things that get changed in the past affect how a person behaves in the present, that doesn’t necessarily mean it is changing the future, because the future hadnt happened yet anyway.Ok, im starting to confuse myself…
    .
    Also, who’s to say Amy wouldn’t have escaped the hostiles anyway to have the baby. It’s surely possible Sawyer changed nothing about the ultimate events, just the way in which they occurred.

  • http://www.sl-lost.com/2009/03/20/critics-review-namaste/ sl-LOST.com – Daily LOST News » Blog Archive » “Namaste” Reviews: How Good Was It?

    [...] 5. James Poniewozik (Time): [...]

  • meg7

    @natego

    That’s a cool way to look at it…I like that idea.

    btw when are we going to see Desmond next….I hope he somehow makes it to the island but I have no theories or ideas on how he would make it there…..anyone thinking about that??

    I have a question- I don’t remember this very well but wasnt the Swan station a necessity after the incident. If so then why is Radzinsky designing one now and trying to keep it under wraps?? Was the station built with a different purpose in mind but modified after the incident??

    I need to look at that dharma clip again..

  • tanishadt

    Could the reason be that Sun is 30 years into the future be because she left preggers but returned without child? I mean didn’t Lady Faraday say they ALL had to go back? What about the kid? Where is Aaron for that matter? I mean even Ben knew the importance of all of them returning, so what’s up!

    If someone has asks this question and got an answer, please fill me in!

  • meg7

    Yeah..I don’t know why Aaron and Walt got a free pass??

    Do you think Sun coming back pregnant would have been like Claire?

  • http://lost-blog.com/2009/03/%e2%80%9cnamaste%e2%80%9d-reviews-how-good-was-it/ “Namaste” Reviews: How Good Was It? | Lost Blog

    [...] 5. James Poniewozik (Time): [...]

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