Tuned In

Lostwatch: That '70s Show

Before you read this post, quit dancing with that girl, turn your attention to the multiple video monitors, and watch last night’s Lost. 

So for the strandees, the flashes have stopped. For the rest of us, however, they are just (re)beginning. Question: are the 1977 scenes flash-back-forwards, or are the 1974 scenes flash-back-backs?

I’m guessing “LaFleur” will be a polarizing episode for Lost fans. It was chock-ful of the multiplying side characters, chronology that requires a slide rule, and dense history that make some people think Lost is a tease, an endless network of bottomless rabbit holes. Me, I can watch Dharma Initiative stuff until the second coming (of Locke, anyway), so I was in geek heaven with this one. The nerdiness, the cultiness, the microbuses—I love it all. Then again, I also liked the first part of season 3, and pretty much anything involving any hatch, ever, so take that with a grain of salt. 

Before we get to the Dharma download, however, credit to Josh Holloway for a good character performance in what was a pretty mythology-heavy episode. While I thought it was a little heavy-handed to have the entire Horace-Amy story serve as a setup to the question “Is three years long enough to get over someone?” (answer: not if that person is a major cast member), it was a nice, sweet moment when Sawyer chided Horace about missing his baby’s birth—especially given what we know about Clementine. He’s so sensitive when he wears his glasses! (I hope Dharma was finally able to equip him with prescription lenses.) And I had always hoped Sawyer and Juliet would become a thing. Shame that’s not likely to last.  

I will give one thing, however, to the critics’ of Lost’s endless complications. One of the frustrating/challenging aspects of the show, five seasons in, is that not only do you have to remember events stretching through the show’s history, you also have to remember which of the characters know what you know, and who has met whom. Thus I found myself straining to remember, for instance, how Sawyer knows Richard Alpert and how he knows the history of the Black Rock. (I may be blanking, but I don’t recall Sawyer and Richard meeting in “Jughead”; he might have encountered Richard and the Black Rock around the time of “The Brig,” but I don’t recall and am not about to dig it up now, so those with superior Lost-fu are welcome to enlighten me in the comments.) Personally, I like the challenge, but I can see why people just give up after a certain point. 

On to the hail of bullets: 

* Can we / should we assume that Locke and the other Ajira survivors are also in 1977, separated only in space and not time from Sawyer and company? Or is that assuming too much? 

* The Sawyer-Kate reunion might have been a tad more affecting had it not been given away in last week’s spoileriffic preview. I have to remember to start avoiding those.

* Incidentally, while that may get most of the attention, for me the more touching reunion was Daniel’s with child Charlotte—Jeremy Davies made his tortured loss mingle with joy at the slight glimpse of the girl he would eventually love.  

* The baby. I assume there are theories out there already as to who it is, but I’m at a loss. Too young to be Ben (whose birth is already accounted for anyway), too male to be Charlotte (who appeared in the episode as a girl anyway)—but I can’t think of anyone else purported to be born on the Island who would have been around 30 at the time of the Oceanic crash. 

* For that matter, the fact that survivors of Oceanic 815 are now themselves figures in Dharma history opens any number of possibilities for how they could influence their own “future”—I’m too exhausted to think about it, but you’re welcome to have at the possibilities. 

* Favorite guest casting? Jimmy from Mad Men? Michelle from 24? Or Herc from FNL?

* One thing that’s still a mystery about the Others is that, while Richard Alpert may not have changed, the Others/Hostiles definitely seem to change, as an organization. “Jughead” showed them as a tightly disciplined, militaristic outfit; this episode—at least with the murder of Amy’s husband—made them seem more like a sadistic cult. (And what was up with their demand for Paul’s body?) Later, they purge Dharma, but take on many of its trappings. Maybe the Others have a way of absorbing the attributes of whatever groups they encounter/destroy. But what are they originally, at their core? 

* With Sawyer doing the heavy emotional lifting in this episode, Miles edged him in the sarcastic-remark sweepstakes by a nose, I think, particularly with the rant about the yo-yo-ing between the beach and the Orchid: ”It’s the only two plans you people have.”

* What happened to keep Sawyer et al. from being shipped off by sub two weeks later? I sense this will be a future Lost Discussion Group question. 

* And speaking of who knows what about whom: We know that Juliet joined the Others around 2001, but what did they tell her about their history? Does she know the Purge is coming—about 15 years from the “present,” if my math is right—or do they leave that bit out of the Orientation film? 

* We saw the statue! Check one item off the “promise kept” list—though I hope there is more explanation about the four-toed feet, someday, besides “They belonged to a really big eight-toed guy.”

Related Topics: lost, Uncategorized
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  • natego

    Excellent episode! Finally, some more meaty material. I enjoyed the performances by all. Jeremy Davies is just excellent.. (seems like we are starting to see the beginning of his nervous breakdown that led to his crying spell)
    .
    My random guess of the day is that the baby is Daniel Faraday. If that’s true, then he would have been kidnapped by the Others at some point, to think Eloise was his mother.
    .
    Speaking of Spoilers, this is exactly why I urge people not to talk about Previews!!! I didn’t see the preview and I thoroughly enjoyed seeing the reunion for the first time during the show (though obviously, you pretty much knew it would happen).
    .
    James , I think they wanted Paul’s body to appease the rest of the ‘hostiles’ – to show that they killed someone in return for the killing of their men. Without the body, they can’t keep the other hostiles from wanting to revolt.
    .
    I still maintain that the statue is an ancient egypt thing… but somewhere inside I feel like they’ll in the end reveal that its one of the 815-ers faces.

  • natego

    A few more thoughts before bed…
    .
    - I feel like that cross from Paul is very significant for some reason. Have we seen this anywhere on the island before???
    .
    - This was my first LOST episode in front of my brand new Samsung 52 inch LCD!! WOOOO!!!! Thanks Circuit City for sucking so hard!

  • James Poniewozik

    @Natego: I think Paul’s necklace was an ankh, which would bolster the ancient Egyptian reference. Dd we see ankhs carved into the temple?

  • Chaddogg

    Loved this episode. Seriously. A mind-frak from beginning to end.
    .
    I love Sawyer’s con-man skills being turned on their head — he realized he was in the “past” (and thus, had knowledge of the future and/or past) and used his knowledge (both future as an 815er, and as a time traveller back to Jughead days) to con everyone as to who he was….conning Horace with the idea they were searching for the Black Rock (which Sawyer knew about from “The Brig”) and Alpert (using the knowledge from “Jughead”). A PHENOMENAL Sawyer episode.
    .
    Related to that — Sawyer and Juliet? Really? I mean, I get it — 3 years is 2.5 years or so more than Sawyer spent with Kate on the island….but those two? Really? And the Sawyer “sneak out on Juliet and don’t tell her Kate is there” trick? WOW!!!! THAT is what you call deep character/story work.
    .
    I’m a little intrigued as a theorist about the “truce” between the Dharma and the Hostiles. Why the importance about burying Hostiles? Is it to hide them from discovery by Alpert???? Or is it MORE than that….I mean, the 815ers were either cremated, or buried (under sand or water), with the NOTABLE exception of Christian Shephard and, now, John Locke. So is the Hostiles’ concern with burial about PREVENTING resurrection? And why does Alpert want Amy’s husband’s (Paul’s? How about that for a biblical name, a la Jacob, by the way?) body??

  • Chaddogg

    @James — I DO NOT think we can assume that Ajira made it to 1977…in fact, I think there is a STRONG presumption that did NOT happen. At least, in terms of Sun and Frank Lapidus. Of course, and, I must warn all those reading, SPOILERISH ALERT…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
    .
    .
    It looks like Sayid made it to 1977 according to the preview for the next episode. So does that mean ALL of them made it? Or was Sayid unique? Why? Where/when is Sun? And where/when is Ben/Locke?

  • Chaddogg

    Ummmm, weird question: where and/or when the heck is Bernard and Rose?
    .
    I gotta say, THAT is a big question.
    .
    By the way, it was AWESOME how the show started — you almost DIDN’T realize it was a new episode for a while….and THEN they show you the 4 toed statue. GREAT work, Lindelof.

  • Matt

    While I don’t think this episode is among the show’s best (it’s very good), the type certainly is – a very character-centric story with lots of mythology/history. Just like the last two episodes. We learn some DHARMA history but not enough to leave us satisfied, and we see Sawyer really grow into that leadership role Hurley tricked him into oh-so-long ago.
    .
    Some questions/thoughts:
    -LaFleur, I’m pretty sure, is French/Cajun for “the flower” – what’s the significance? Other than the Orchid, somehow.
    -We saw all the LeftBehinds in ’77 other than Daniel, so is it possible he’s a) with the Hostiles b) sent through time (season premiere intro) or c) just offscreen? I’d love – LOVE – to see “a”.
    -Horace was with Amy in ’77. So when does Olivia show up? What happens to Amy?
    -Why does Juliet stay and not leave after 2 weeks? More flashbacks, perchance!
    -I do not buy Horace’s explanation that he was just throwing dynamite at trees willy-nilly. There has to be something more.

  • Matt

    After hitting “send” I realized that Horace and Olivia would have had to have run into Roger, Emily & newborn Ben BEFORE 1974 or else Ben would be too young (we think his age in 2004 is early 40s, right?)

  • Tom Shaw

    Assuming everyone is in 1977 is a terrible idea – Caeser specifically said they disappeared from the plane.
    -
    Not only did last week’s preview ruin the Kate reunion, but that Sun is definitely in Ben’s time period (jump editing be damned).
    -
    The baby: They are now in 1977. It was 2004 when 815 crashed, so the baby (and it probably has to be someone we “know”, if they avoided naming him) is only ~27 when the series starts. Most likely options are Ethan the Other, Kate’s bankrobbing boyfriend, or Aaron’s father (Claire’s boyfriend).
    -
    I totally dug that the security logo was a Dharmatized
    sheriff’s badge.

    -
    Was that The Pearl in the opening bit? That seems to strongly suggest that The Incident did indeed damage The Swan, if its operation now has to be monitored 24/7.
    -
    Interesting the mention about “The Truce”, isn’t it? Such a condition could be called “peace”, meaning we could still be in Widmore’s reign, with the Incident seeming ever more likely to be his Wheel usage. (And what probably boots the 815 crew into “the present”, more or less.)
    -
    And the body related rules do seem indicative of something. Given the ankhs shown (usually connected to ressurection),
    perhaps Christian/Locke weren’t uncommon in the past.
    -
    Sigh, Horace too knows all. He didn’t even blink when the Black Rock was mentioned. Unless it crashes onto the Island with Widmore’s wheel usage, in 1977 or later, but then where did he get the dynamite from now?
    -
    Daniel isn’t with the Hostiles, he’s cooped up with Candle/Wick/Chang, making videos for future comic-cons. I did like Miles pulling a Pushing Daisies and working as the world’s best murder investigator though.

  • jcrhoo

    One of my favorite lines in a while was Sawyer to Amy, explaining that she should just tell him the truth because it’ll be all over the Coconut Telegraph soon anyway.
    -
    Shades, of course, of his previous reference to the Coconut Internet (in conversation with Hurley?) But then, the D.I. wouldn’t know about the Coconut Internet yet.

  • Paul O’Regan

    “Can we / should we assume that Locke and the other Ajira survivors are also in 1977, separated only in space and not time from Sawyer and company? Or is that assuming too much?”

    I’m pretty sure Locke & Co. are in 2008. Didn’t their plane land on the small runway that was being built in Season Three?

  • Chaddogg

    Thought about Horace and the dynamite — he was throwing it at trees, right?
    .
    Shades of Smokey, no? Smokey ALWAYS seems to be blowing up trees from their base (or pulling them out of the ground, or pushing them out from beneath). Was drunken Horace, at the fence-line, trying to “goad” Smokey into action?

  • jcrhoo

    Great point, Chaddogg. I noticed the same thing about Horace and the trees.

  • Dave

    @Tom – I think they were deliberate in not showing Daniel or Chang (or anything that would hint at the Incident). If Chang really loses his arm in the Incident, then we know it happens before the Linuses get there, and so if Ben really did trick Widmore into leaving the Island, then Widmore couldn’t have been the cause of the Incident (unless Ben also get sent back to 1977 and found the Others to trick Widmore into leaving… but that’s a stretch to me). I do agree that the Incident will boot Our Heroes back to the present. (Can we even call them 815ers any more? I suppose now that the O5 are back, more than half of them were on the plane.)
    `
    I seem to recall that Sawyer has made French jokes before, probably about Rousseau. Even if he hadn’t, in S1, he was definitely the type, and seeing him use a French name amused me.
    `
    I also agree that Team Ajira is still in 2008 on the Hydra island. I’m confident that the O5 are all in 1977.
    `
    The romantic sucker in me loved Sawyer and Juliet at first, then the rational side of me groaned and got annoyed, but now I’m okay with it. It makes sense, considering all they’ve been through. Maybe we’ll see more of them getting together, but even if we don’t, I’m fine with what they’ve given us.
    `
    I think the statue scene was in there as a hat-tip to serious fans and a reminder to casual fans (the ones who all said “who’s this Eloise Hawking lady, and why is she suddenly so important?”).

  • Dave

    The more I think about it, the sadder I get about Sawyer and Juliet. I mean, you can’t have real happiness and romantic resolution a season and a half from the end. And yet both actors sold it so well… I was completely sucked in. In Alan Sepinwall’s words, “Sawyer and Juliet fit so well together that it was almost disappointing to see him set eyes on Freckles again at the end.”
    `
    Sawyer and Juliet are the most complete and responsible of the romantic quadrilateral, and I’m really dreading the romantic upheaval of bringing Kate and Jack back into the mix. I really, really want to see Sawyer and Juliet put their foot down and be like, “Hey, we’ve been together for 3 years, and this is great. We’re not ruining this for an old 108-day fling.”

  • hzak5

    Two things with this episode, first I swear that the rocking chair in Sawyers room, is the same as the one that was in Jacobs cabin. Second wouldn’t it really melt your brain if that giant egyptian statue would really be from the future and not the past.

  • natego

    I liked how they have Sawyer pick the flower for Juliet with his faux-name being LaFleur. I think the flower metaphor was quite prevalent throughout the episode.
    .
    Again, I really thought there was no mystery in the fact that the others needed Paul’s body in order to show there was some sort of retribution for the killing of the two Others. This seemed really obvious to me and not of any mysterious quality. Also, I thought the notion of burying the bodies was also very obvious – they needed to hide them from being discovered by the Others – jeopardizing the truce.
    .
    @Paul – if they flight landed safely on a runway, why were so many people injured on the flight? I believe the plan crashed a la 815.
    .
    Here’s a thought – Perhaps Paul was an Other that converted to the DI or was planted in there as a spy. That would explain the Egyptian type necklace. Perhaps he betrayed the Others which is why they killed him. In fact – Perhaps why they need the body – To show the OTHERS that this is what happens when you betray us!

  • natego

    @hzak5 – If the statue was from the future, why was only a leg left of it in the past? Were they building the statue one leg at a time?

  • chriskw

    Did Horace or any other Dharma people ever state what year it was. I know Sawyer told Richard Alpert that it had been 20 years since the H-Bomb encounter but he was probably just estimating. The reason I bring this up is that would have made Charlotte around 33 or 34 (the red headed girl looked to be around 3 years old) when she came to the island in late 2004. Rebecca Mader is a few years younger than that and characters tend to be slightly younger than the actors who play them. But in this case I am guessing they made her slightly older for storytelling purposes.
    -
    Plus, when we first met Horace Goodspeed he had a wife named Olivia. She was little Ben’s teacher. I am assuming that this episode takes place after Ben and his father first came to the island.
    -
    For the chronology to make sense Sawyer and crew first came to Dharma around 1976 or ’77. So Jack and Kate arrived in ’79 or ’80. Then again, maybe it doesn’t make any sense
    -
    The statue was my favorite part of the episode. It’s almost beet three years since we last saw that thing. If it is even the same statue.

  • shara says

    I thought this episode was awesome. A few thoughts:
    .
    1) Sawyer and Juliet: Since folks had been speculating for a long time that the two of them would get together, it wasn’t a surprise. I wasn’t expecting to like them together, but I totally did. I loved seeing Sawyer having become the person that he always had the potential to be – caring, responsible, open, etc – and it was nice to see Juliet happy for once. I am actually now hoping that he doesn’t wind up with Kate, which is bizarre because until last night I’ve always been a total shipper for them. Kate always screws everything up for Juliet, just by being around. Mr. Shara Says kept saying “Juliet just needs to shoot Kate”.
    .
    2) Sawyer can totally carry an episode. Just saying.
    .
    3) Do we know how much time passed between The Incident and The Purge? Because I’m trying to find some way to look at the Purge from another angle – which I’m sure is going to happen eventually. Could something have happened in the Incident that “changed” the Dharma folks (i.e. everyone not protected by communion with the island), putting the Hostiles in the same position as, say, Rousseau had been in with her team – where the Dharma folks weren’t themselves anymore, but had been possessed/whatever, which made the mass killing a necessity or something?
    .
    4) Still no Rose and Bernard? I’m still wondering if its possible that they constantized each other and stopped flashing, and are now stuck in some other time.
    .
    5)From behind, I thought that the statue looked very much like the egyption jackal god thing – annubis. The head was really funny shaped, and I just got that impression. I went to wikipedia and looked up annubis, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis , and that’s what I’m going with until I hear other evidence to the contrary, It could make a lot of contextual sense, because annubis had stuff to do with death and rebirth, tombs, cemetaries, weighing of hearts, gatekeeper to the underworld, and lots of other stuff that sounds very Islandy to me.

  • antilles13

    @natego- that’s an interesting theory on why they needed Paul’s body. I get everyone saying they needed it to convince the other Hostile’s that there was already retribution, but they could acheive that simply by having Richard see the body. The Hostile’s would have to take his word for it, wouldn’t they? There’s got to be more to it, and I kind of like your theory.
    -
    I’m not a huge Sawyer fan, but I loved this episode. Maybe it was simply because it’s been two full seasons since we’ve had a Sawyer-centric episode. (Seriously, the last one was 3.04 – that’s kind of insane for such a major character.) It was good to see Holloway get to play more than the “pissed-off rogue” for a change. The difference between Sawyer 1974 and “Dharma Sawyer” three years later was quite startling. When Juliet came out and announced Amy’s delivery went well, and he got that huge, genuine smile on his face – seriously, have we ever seen Sawyer smile like that?? – I loved it. And major props to Holloway for the scene with him and Horace re: getting over someone in three years. (I totally buy Sawyer/Juliet, btw, much moreso that Skate. Mostly b/c they have that same wry/sarcastic sense of humor, and Juliet never saw Sawyer acting like a total ass for two seasons.)
    -
    I think Jack & Co. HAVE to be in a different time period than Locke & Co. The “sheriff” dancing in the station mentioned something about the polar bears getting out of their cages – cages which were at the Hydra station, the same station Caesar was rifling through last episode. They have to be different time periods.
    -
    DDK finally gets to speak English on a regular basis!! He must be thrilled.

  • archstanton68

    should we take sawyer at face value when he said it was 1974 or was that a sawyerism/rough estimate?
    .
    Does anyone else think it must be awkward for the writers now that it’s clear the 2 leads are among the weaker actors on the show and by far the most annoying characters? seriously, anything involving Jack and Kate just drags this show down. I’m hoping they go for a surprise and kill both of them off, ASAP. it would be good for shock value AND help the show immensely.

  • Dave

    @natego – the Ajira flight did not land safely on the runway, but it sure was in a lot better shape than 815 was in. Considering that it was all (or mostly) in one piece, and not in flaming bits scattered across the Hydra island, I’d say that the runway played a role. This seems really obvious to me. (Sorry, I just had to throw that comment in there :))
    `
    I actually think there’s more to needing both Paul’s body and the Hostile bodies. If Richard needed to know he was dead for retribution’s sake, they could just show him the body. I’m inclined to think it has something to do with Smokey, but I have nothing to base it on.
    `
    @chriskw – I’m pretty sure Sawyer said it was 1977, and I trust him at that. If they’ve been there for 3 years, they’d be able to glean what year it is :)
    `
    @shara – 1)After seeing Juliet and Sawyer together, I really want them to end up together too. Maybe this means Jack and Kate will somehow fix their problems (probably not happening), or maybe it means Jack and Kate will get teleported back a few hundred years to die in a cave together. 2)Absolutely agree. 3)Before this episode, the Incident appeared to be mid-70′s. Now, I’m thinking the Incident happened in 1977 (or maybe 1978, if the O5 show up late in the year). We know that the Purge happened on December 19, 1992. 4)I don’t think Rose & Bernard are stuck in another time… I just think the producers are waiting to drop them on us in classic Lost bombshell fashion. 5)GREAT catch on Anubis, Shara! Check this HD screen cap: http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/5ec86b30a63635da25c16b67748e0694 It sure looks like that’s an ankh in the statue’s hand. (What exactly that means or implies, I have no idea)

  • Matt

    Something I just thought of, not really a theory but just a brain-nugget: in ’74, Richard still dresses business-casual when dealing with non-Hostiles. And yet, within 5 years (we presume) he appears to pre-teen Ben with shaggy hair and “mountain man” clothing. So what changed between the Hostiles & the DI’s relationship between that point where Richard starts playing dress-up (assuming that’s what it is) or where they actually start dressing like that. I’m trying to remember Man Behind the Curtain – do the Hostiles dress like that during the Purge?

  • Dave

    @archstanton – I agree that Jack and Kate are the most annoying main characters, but I’m trusting that the producers are using that to give them a shot at redemption in season 6.

  • natego

    @Dave, it has nothing to do with Richard in my opinion. It is all about the rest of the Hostiles. Richard is their leader and wants to show the rest of them for his own purposes. Also, what do you think of the theory that Paul is possibly a spy or Other turned DI?

  • Chaddogg

    Doc Jensen (@ Time’s corporate sibling, EW.com) totally nailed this episode again in his recap (no offense James, your recap is awesome too): The big question for this episode?
    .
    If they (Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, Jin, Faraday) are in 1977-ish Dharma — WHERE IS YOUNG BEN LINUS?
    .
    Is it possible that the Island has/is already course-correcting, and we’re seeing it already? Horace with a different woman than the one he was with when Ben came to the island (who’s name was Olivia). No young Ben Linus and his dad, Roger Workman. Charlotte already born (and about 2-3 years old, from the looks of things) despite Ben’s earlier statement (in an episode last year) that Charlotte was born in 1979. And now the Oceanic 6 back on the island (but split in time, perhaps?)
    .
    I’m really thinking we’re seeing the course correction play out….and Doc Jensen also has a GREAT theory on where this is taking us — a complete “replay” of Season 1 in the final season, with everything being “slightly” different, including character flashbacks.

  • antilles13

    Something else I was curious about… We saw in the beginning a shot of Locke falling down into the well, limping over to the FDW, and turning it back, but there was no hint of Christian being around. We specifically saw Locke turn the wheel back and then lean back against the wall for a second, which is when (before) Christian asks him to say hello to “his son”, and Locke responds. But in this shot (1) Christian wasn’t there and (2) Locke never says “who’s your son?” It almost seemed like it was hinting that Christian was just a figment of Locke’s imagination or something. (Meaning, had Sawyer been in the room, for example, he wouldn’t even had seen Christian.) Did anyone else think that was weird? Am I reading too much into it or was it purposely edited that way?

  • Dave

    @Matt – I think that’s their general getup. If they’re in the jungle, they dress the part (easier for camouflage and silent movement). If Richard needs to go in on business, he comes as a leader. (Though it’s interesting that we don’t see any Widmore right now)

  • Matt

    @antilles – I think it was just editing. I’m pretty sure someone mentioned it above, but they blended the “Previously on Lost” in with the actual episode. The wheel-turning was part of the “Previously”, and for this episode, Christian’s presence was unnecessary.

  • Tom Shaw

    Timeline comments:
    Sawyer clearly indicated it was 1974 when he and Juliet were by the sub, talking over whether she should go back; it’s now 1977 when Kate/Jack/Hurley/Sayid/possibly others land. Ben’s birthdate is unknown, but is thought to be in the mid 60s (the show specifically picked a car from 1963 or later); that would put him anywhere from 10 to 14 at the moment, and is either already on The Island or will be there before The Incident. Which, if Widmore is responsible for The Incident, means he was outsmarted by a child (no wonder Charles hates Ben). It’s entirely possible young Ben overhears some 815er mention the things that will allow him to trump Widmore, keeping with our closed loop constraints.
    -
    Now, as far as Pierre Chang goes: it’s tough to say. He could have met with Daniel as early as 1974 to make the Comic-Con video, or it could still be in his future. What complicates matters is that he has the use of both arms when The Pearl is up and running. So either The Pearl
    has always been designed for monitoring The Swan (or monitoring the inhabitants of The Pearl via The Flame), or he lost his arm well after The Incident and all the videos were refilmed afterwards.

  • natego

    Oh, I love the moments from the writers too.. “You mean that guy with the eyeliner?”
    .
    I think that was a razz of Lost fans by the writers..

  • chriskw

    @ shara

    You’re right. The statue does more like an Egyptian god. So just wearing a skirt doesn’t really indicate gender. And I guess it’s shirtless. Either way, it was nice to see if only to show that the producers havn’t forgotten about it.

    @Dave

    If Sawyer said ’77 than I can accept that. But I just read that Ben said Charlotte was born in 1979 and she didn’t say he was wrong. If the red head girl was Charlotte than that means that she was practically 10 YEARS older. If it wasn’t for these timeline issues I would have liked the episode more. If it gets straightened out than I will enjoy it more later.

  • Chaddogg

    @shara says: as for The Incident and The Purge, I’m wondering if there has already been a course-correction. John did succeed in bringing back the Oceanic 6 (in some form and perhaps in different times, but still….) If that is the case, it is QUITE possible that NEITHER the Incident NOR the Purge happen again for some yet-to-be-seen reason….time course-correction would stop these events from occuring, which would, ultimately (unless I’m mistaken) prevent the original-flava button-pushing Hatch from being built (no need to contain the power)….which means Desmond no longer needs to be on the Island…..which means the Oceanic 815ers don’t crash because there is no near-meltdown….
    .
    Wow — time loop madness.

  • Dave

    @Chad – We never had a definite date on when Ben was born or got to the Island, but so far things are still in line with the theory that Chang loses his arm in the Incident, Our Heroes leave DI times in the Incident, and the Linuses arrive after the Incident.
    `
    I don’t think there is any course correction being done… in Daniel’s (miserable, great, epic) words: “Doesn’t matter what we do. Whatever happened, happened.”

  • Tom Shaw

    Actually, now that I think about it: Chang uses both arms in the Orchid Orientation film; given that the Orchid is built on top of The Wheel, it has to be built after The Wheel is used by Widmore in The Incident. All the one armed Chang videos were filmed well after The Incident, period.
    -
    It too bugged me that Charlotte was roughly 3 years old in 1974 (and therefore born in 1971). I’m going to chalk it down to Daniel simply being wrong – that wasn’t Charlotte, but an older sister (Annie?).

  • Chaddogg

    By the way — it officially sucks that we have to wait 2 weeks for new Lost. And that we’re halfway through this season already. Where does the time go?
    .
    (Oh, wait…I know. It goes to the island and jumps around like a needle on a record. THAT is where it goes.)

  • texgator

    Definitely an interesting episode. Especially liked the glimpse of the statue and the set up and selling of the relationship between Sawyer and Juliet which I found much more believable than Sawyer and Kate (not to mention that I find myself getting annoyed every time Kate shows up). With that said I thought I might share a spoiler that might shed some light on the future of Lost and the Sawyer/Juliet/Kate love triangle that is developing…

    ***POSSIBLE SPOILER BELOW***

    I read recently on a “reasonably” reputable site (AICN) that Evangeline Lilly has signed a contract to film a pilot for a show that will begin airing in January of 2010 the same time the final season of Lost begins airing. If that is true then that would mean that she would be filming and working on the show during the summer/fall of of 2009 the same time the final season of Lost is filming. If this is true (and again I am treating it as simply a rumor at this point) that would mean that Lilly will not have any ongoing obligations to Lost past the end of the current season. In other words I think we are heading towards a MAJOR character death (Kate) that would really throw the allegiances and motivations of 3 other major characters (Sawyer, Jack, and Juliet) into crisis for the final season not to mention the ripple effects on other characters as well. This would seem to make sense with the MO of Lost. The show hasn’t actually “killed” a characeter since Charlie and the creators have always said that no charactters are guaranteed of making it to the series finale alive. To date they’ve eliminated supporting characters (Boone, Shannon, Charlie, Michael, Eko, Anna Lucia, Libby not to mention whatever happened to Claire) but they have shied away from harming one of the series “main characters” (Locke, Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sun). I have a feeling that is about to change. Just some food for thought…

  • archstanton68

    regarding Charlotte, i’m inclined to believe that Ben was wrong about her age. being born in 1979 would have made her 25 when she reached the island with Widmore’s people. i forget the details, but things like her various degrees didn’t really match up with being 25 (unless she was a prodigy). maybe we’ve already been watching a course-corrected version of the timeline.

  • Dave

    I think we’re making this all way, way too complicated. It makes perfect sense for the Incident to take place in 1977 (the near future from the ‘now’ of Our Heroes), Chang to lose his hand, then Ben to get to the Island and usurp Widmore. Remember, when Ben turned the wheel and moved the Island, the only people dislodged were the people connected with the O6. We have evidence of a flash that doesn’t teleport anyone through time (Desmond turning the failsafe key), so it’s absolutely possible that Ben convinced Widmore to turn the wheel and leave in the 80′s or 90′s. It’s also just as possible that Ben convinced Widmore to leave the Island, then had the Looking Glass station block off Widmore’s communications – remember, Miles said that Widmore had been looking for the Island for 20 years. That means that in the mid-80′s Widmore started looking for the Island (if he didn’t lie to Miles and his crew, which is totally possible). In fact, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Widmore already had the Widmore Corporation started off-Island, so Ben probably tricked him into leaving for business reasons, then just prevented him from getting back (like how the sub couldn’t come back after the Looking Glass was disabled).
    `
    Heck, that makes a lot of sense. And it doesn’t involve any time-space course corrections :)

  • antilles13

    @Chaddog- yeah, the two week brake sucks. Anyone know what the reason for that is? Is something going on next Wednesday? Or do they just think everyone will be too hungover from St. Patty’s day to understand what the frak is going on…

  • antilles13

    @Chaddog- yeah, the two week break sucks. Anyone know what the reason for that is? Is something going on next Wednesday? Or do they just think everyone will be too hungover from St. Patty’s day to understand what the frak is going on…

  • Dave

    Re: Charlotte – or Ben just recited off the fake story she always used to explain how she didn’t just spontaneously appear in the late 70′s.
    `
    @Tom – I’m not sure what set you so sure on Widmore turning the Wheel being the Incident, or that it happened before 1977, but I totally disagree. I know we’re all posting on top of each other, but I really think my thoughts in post 39 make a lot of sense.

  • antilles13

    sorry for the double post – I thought I fixed my spelling error in time…

  • archstanton68

    OT – I got a Nielsen diary in the mail the other day. anyone have any struggling shows for me to help out in the ratings?

  • antilles13

    @Dave- the only problem I see in your timeline is Penny. If Widmore doesn’t get off Island until the mid-eighties (according to Miles’ non-specific reference to 20 years), Penny had to have been born on Island or it wouldn’t make sense. Of course, that’s entirely possible. … Do we know anything about the beginnings of Widmore’s corp. (timewise)??

  • archstanton68

    @ Dave – I’m with you on Widmore’s wheel-turning not necessarily being the incident. the wildcard in all that is Penny, and how she fits into the timeline. I tend to think she was born on-island, and was exiled with her father at a young age.

    maybe when Ben arrived as a kid, Richard recognized him as a future leader and exiled Widmore to make room for Ben’s ascension to the throne.

  • Matt

    @Archstanton – I think a more likely explanation for the Ben/Widmore feud (and by likely, I mean one that doesn’t make my head hurt trying to figure out how early Widmore would have had to get off the Island to establish a financial empire and have Penny) is that adult Ben kicks him out at some point in the “past”. If Ajira did crash in the 70s, problem solved. But I don’t think that’s when Ajira crashed, so I’m guessing he somehow goes back in time later.

  • Tom Shaw

    Re the break: Back when ABC announced the show’s scheduling, I remarked that they wouldn’t have enough episodes to go through May; as is, assuming a two hour season finale, the season wraps up on May 6th.
    -
    I expect to see another repeat/clip show sometime in early April to try and pick up another May sweeps day; its just another unfortunate side effect of the collapse of their Fall Wed schedule (and the need to bring Lost back early to prime their winter Wed schedule).

  • Chaddogg

    @archstanton68: The correct answers to your Nielsen query are: “Life” and “Friday Night Lights.” And maybe “30 Rock” and “The Office” (just to be safe).

  • Dave

    @antilles – Actually, the whole reason I thought of Widmore just being tricked into leaving for business reasons is Penny. Widmore had her on-Island, pre-Incident, then Ben tricks him into leaving and never lets him come back. If Widmore turned the Wheel and got teleported out, either Penny would have been stuck on-Island or born off-Island. In fact, having Penny born on-Island even makes sense of things. Widmore was so overprotective of Penny because she’s his last link to the Island. Maybe him having a child to raise endeared him to his people, and so in Ben’s coup attempt, he took Alex to also have a child to raise.

  • Tom Shaw

    @Dave: I don’t disagree with all your points, but I simply can’t agree with some of them. Check the following -
    Assumptions (not know to be true, admittedly):
    Chang can not regrow arms. Any video with a fake arm is filmed after all videos with a functioning arm.
    The Wheel was inaccessible after the Orchid station is built (Ben had to blow up the Orchid floor to get to The Wheel, after all).
    Widmore did indeed use The Wheel as he told Locke.
    -
    Following from that, the timeline has to be:
    Widmore uses The Wheel.
    Some time later, The Orchid is constructed; Chang makes its orientation video while still having both arms.
    Some time later, Chang makes (new?) orientation videos for the other stations, where he now only has the use of one arm.
    -
    So no, assuming there is no alternate access to The Wheel, Widmore’s usage of it and Chang’s dis-arming are not simultaneous. Whether or not The Incident is Widmore’s Wheel usage is unknown, but in my opinion extremely likely.
    -
    @archstanton: Well, there’s two separate goals to Nielsen recordings: encouraging a network to have a show to return next year and encouraging the network to run all the episodes from this season this year. IMO:
    Life: Will run through all its episodes and will not return next year, period; Nielsen recording irrelevant.
    FNL: Will run through all its episodes and will only return through the funding of DirectTV; Nielsen recording irrelevant.
    Dollhouse: Will run through all its episodes and unlikely to return next year; Nielsen recording useful on the second count.
    Chuck: Will run through all its episodes and may return next year; Nielsen recording useful on the second count.
    Reaper: May or may not run through all its episodes and will not return next year; Nielsen recording useful on the first count.
    -
    So to summarize: report Reaper if you want to see all the episodes on TV, rather than DVD; report Dollhouse & Chuck if you want to see another season; reporting Life & FNL is irrelevant.

  • Dave

    When did Widmore say he used the Wheel? I thought he said that Ben tricked him into leaving the Island. It’s very possible Widmore went back on the sub and Ben gave orders to bring the sub back without him. (Or, Widmore left on a boat, and Ben ordered the Looking Glass to jam communications)

  • Matt

    @Tom – Have we considered that there’s more than one way to get to the Donkey Wheel? We know there’s the well, and we know there’s the Orchid. But I’m trying to think about the season premiere, and I don’t think that they’re *necessarily* at the same place. It’s likely, sure, but I don’t think definite. I’m willing to keep a healthy skepticism that the Hostiles could have cleared out the well after the Orchid was built, and Widmore got down that way.

  • Dave

    Update: I checked the transcript on The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham, and it does definitely imply that Widmore left via the Wheel. However, I don’t think that necessarily means that he would have left before the Orchid station was complete. (At the beginning of Because You Left, they didn’t keep drilling towards the Wheel, but the Orchid Station in the future has a path dug out to it with a ladder placed. Maybe that path was taken by the Hostiles to get Widmore to the Wheel?

  • Chaddogg

    @Tom Shaw — I have to disagree with your FNL analysis (although thanks for mentioning Chuck, which NEEDS more viewers). The decision to bring back FNL will depend in part on DirectTV funds, but ALSO on whether NBC feels that the lower shared cost of the show, in conjunction with the ratings it gets on NBC, warrant renewal.
    .
    So watching/Nielsen diarying FNL WOULD help in that it would raise FNL’s NBC ratings, making it more profitable for NBC in terms of ad dollars, and more likely (since DirectTV is helping foot production costs) that FNL returns.

  • Tom Shaw

    @Dave: You’re right, the wording is inconclusive. From Lostpedia:
    “LOCKE: How did you know I’d be there?
    WIDMORE: Well, that’s the exit. I was afraid Benjamin might fool you into leaving the Island, as he did with me. I was their leader. [...] They’re my people. We protected the Island peacefully for more than three decades. But then I was exiled… by him… just as you were.”
    -
    So no, he doesn’t explicitly say he used The Wheel; for that matter, with his use of the phrase “We”, we aren’t even sure Widmore himself was on The Island for thirty+ years.
    But I find Widmore using The Wheel, as The Incident, kicking the 815ers into the present, and starting the decline of The Dharma Empire with Ben as its conqueror, to be eminently reasonable (if, I will again admit, not explicitly known). Chang can’t lose his arm at the time though, if he still has it after the Orchid construction is finished.

  • http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2009/03/05/crash-the-nielsens/ Crash the Nielsens :: Tuned In – TIME.com

    [...] Posted by James Poniewozik | Comments (0) | Permalink | Trackbacks (0) | Email This In the current Lost thread, commenter archstanton68 goes off-topic to make an offer that deserves its own post (if only [...]

  • covelebm

    Sorry if any of these ideas are repeats; I love the show, but I don’t spend a lot of time in discussion groups:
    -
    Regarding the whereabouts and whenabouts of the Ajira group relative to the rest, I believe that they are in the same time now, but they are on the smaller, neighboring island where Jack, Kate, and Sawyer were kept for a time. That would explain why Lapidus took a boat and left. Thank goodness the plane arrived after three years’ worth of experiences from Sawyer’s group; I was getting really tired of keeping track of “how long” it had been since the island moved from each group’s perspective.
    -
    I’m assuming that Sawyer’s group never left the island after the first two weeks because no one honestly wanted to. We know that Sawyer has exhibited some newfound faith in Locke and the island, and it seemed that Juliet was the only one seriously considering leaving. After all, what do they have to go back to: the world in 1977? No, thank you. They would also be leaving behind anyone who know who they really were, which would be tough on anybody.
    -
    A general theory on Ben’s motives: Ben’s not ready to give up his role as “savior and leader” of the island’s people to Locke, so he’s trying to do for Locke what he thinks the island wants Locke to do. That would explain why he opted to move the island first; he knew it was Locke who was supposed to do that. That would explain why he seemed to exhibit a genuine feeling of exasperation to Jack and Sun when Jack threatened to kill him; he’s frustrated with everyone’s rejection of him as the savior figure. That would explain why he tried to thwart Locke’s efforts, and why he killed Locke upon hearing the mention of Eloise Hawking. He knew what visiting her meant, and he saw his opportunity to return to the island with the Oceanic 6 in tow. Personally, I’m psyched to see Ben return to his nemesis character over his less compelling, amoral, manipulative character.

  • shara says

    Wow. I’m gonna have to let this possible closed time loop vs course correction sink in to my brain for awhile.
    .
    About Charlotte – the two most reasonable possibilities seem like 1) That wasn’t Charlotte, but an older sibling (possibly Annie?); or 2) When Charlotte’s mother took her from the island, she created a fake past with fake dates, to the point of lying about her child(ren)’s age(s).

  • shara says

    Quick excerpts from wikipedia’s ankh article, which might inform discussion on that symbol in an islandy context:
    .
    “Still other theories include the notion that the ankh represents the sun crowning over the horizon, the path of the sun from east to west (with the loop representing the Nile), a stylized person, or that it is a combination of the male and female symbols of Osiris (the cross) and Isis (the oval) respectively, and therefore signifies the union of heaven and Earth.”
    .
    and: “The Ankh is often displayed as being poured out of vessels, in streams of ankhs, which are interpreted as water. However,it is not just any water. It is the water which has the magical properties of eternal life.”
    .
    and: “The ankh appears frequently in Egyptian tomb paintings and other art, often at the fingertips of a god or goddess in images that represent the deities of the afterlife conferring the gift of life on the dead person’s mummy; this is thought to symbolize the act of conception. Additionally, an ankh was often carried by Egyptians as an amulet, either alone, or in connection with two other hieroglyphs that mean “strength” and “health”. Mirrors of beaten metal were also often made in the shape of an ankh, either for decorative reasons or to symbolize a perceived view into another world”
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh

  • walle1

    Took a closer look at the statue(picture over at lostpedia), is it me or does the statue appear to be holding an ank? Also on a minor note, maybe im reading to much into it but Richard and the eyeliner-line, egyptians where quite into makeup, in particulary around the eyes, could Richard be that old?

  • shara says

    @walle1: It definitely looks like it is. I’m also definitely down with the possibility of Richard being literally that ancient, I had originally thought that the eyeliner was just some unsubtle make-up work to give the dude eye definition, but with all the ancient egyption references, combined with the characters’ recognition of it as “eyeliner”, I think that could be a very telling clue.

  • txaustinbo

    Hey folks. Just got “tuned in” here and I am a first time poster. I have not read much in the history, just this seasons comments. Be gentle with me! :) Couple questions.
    - I am sure its been brought up before but I cant find it yet in the shows previous episodes. What’s all this talk about Chang and losing an arm?
    - When the people from the freighter were coming Ben told Alex and Carl to “head to the temple”. I may be wrong but isn’t that what the smoke monster “protects”? Would that not endanger her just as much?
    - I am sure people thought of it before but isn’t Atlantis becoming more of a possibility than Purgatory or the island being Christian related? Ancient civilization, advanced technology, impossible to find. Fountain of youth kinda advanced which explains Richard never aging?
    - When Russo’s team went into the temple and came out, they obviously had been altered in the mind. Could this not have also happened to Ben? Or Whitmore for that matter? Or anyone who seems to have gone a little mad.
    - As to last nights episode I could have sworn it would have been Claire with the bad over her head. I assume she is time jumping with the rest of them no? Or does hanging out with dear old dad/Jacob prevent her from the effects?

    I know we are only suppose to keep on topic with recent episode but like I said 1st time poster and just wanted to air those questions…. Thanks!

  • shara says

    @txaustinbo: Welcome! The lost arm thing – in the Dharma Orientation videos, Marvin Candle (aka Pierre Chang, etc) sometimes has 2 real arms, and sometimes one is fake, leading to a variety of theories about how and when he lost his arm.

  • http://www.sl-lost.com/2009/03/05/critics-reviews-of-episode-508-lafleur/ sl-LOST.com – Daily LOST News » Blog Archive » Critics’ Reviews of Episode 5.08 – “LaFleur”

    [...] 5. James Poniewozik (Time): [...]

  • Dave

    Re: Richard’s eyes – if you check out his imdb site, those are actually his real eyes. He just has freakishly thick eye lashes.
    `
    @txaustinbo – Congrats on catching up and being brave enough to ask some quesions :) There’s nothing wrong with even the silliest of questions – you never know when an innocent question can lead to a great theory! As for your questions (forgive me if I go into too much detail answering):
    -In the various orientation videos for the Dharma stations (and other videos available through ARGs and DVD special features), Chang appears under a variety of names, and in some videos, he appears to have full use of both hands. In other videos, he appears to either have no use of his left hand or have a prosthesis for his left hand/arm. It’s common speculation that Chang loses his hand/arm in an event called the Incident, though we’ve seen evidence of bodies losing arms in other circumstances(young Widmore ready to chop Juliet’s hand off and Smokey pulling Montand’s arm off).
    -That does make sense, though there are a few possible explanations: there could be multiple temples; there could be multiple layers of the temple (outer wall, courtyards, etc.); or Smokey might not be hostile to the Others at all.
    -Atlantis is becoming more and more of a possibility, though there have been hints at connections to both ancient Carthage and ancient Egypt. It’s possible they do use Atlantis, but downplay it towards the end of S6 with a line like, “…some have called the Island Atlantis, others have called it myth, but it’s actually…”
    -It’s very, very possible that the brainwashing that happened to the French team is exactly what has happened to the Others (I happen to absolutely believe this, though there’s little evidence other than the one French guy talking to Rousseau).
    -I think the current Claire status is hanging out with dear old dad. Apparently we’re not going to see much of her this season, but more of her next season… or something like that :)
    `
    Like I said before… any question is a good one. We tend to get a little crazy with our theories, and sometimes a good grounding of basic questions can help us all sort out the crazy!

  • natego

    Here’s one thing I’m still confused about…

    When they say “Three Years Later” on the screen but show island events, how do we really know it is three years later in island time?? We know that the island time moves differently than off-island. So they say “Three Years Later” I guess they mean real-time off-island. May not have seemed that long for the islanders.. but if I remember, Sawyer says something about not having seen Kate for 3 years?

    Or maybe once the time jumps stopped, the island runs in real-time again?

  • Matt

    @natego – Time ON the Island moves normally, but when you travel TO/FROM the Island on in incorrect bearing, then it gets screwy.

  • shara says

    “I’m guessing “LaFleur” will be a polarizing episode for Lost fans.”
    .
    From what I’ve read, the responses seem overwhelmingly positive. Definitely one of my all-time favorite Lost episodes.

  • Tom Shaw

    re Egypt: It’s been theorized by a number of people that Richard is ancient Egyptian due to his “eyeliner”; given the ankhs & Egyptian nature of the four toed statue, I now think it is highly likely “Richard” is in fact ancient Egyptian by birth, brought to the Island dead, and then resurrected into his current form. Like Richard, Locke will no longer age, but probably can be killed (he’s the epitome of the “fast healing but still killable” condition the Losties have had since arriving).
    -
    The question for that being, how would the Egyptians know about The Island? Did The Island used to be more mediterranean in loction, or did ancient Egyptians find out from exiles that set up shop in Carthage?
    -
    @natego: No, the back half of season 4 made it clear that Island time & real world time run at the same speed; going through the EM “barrier” around The Island (unless via the correct Heading) simply results in time travel (Daniel’s rocket, the Helicopter, the doctor’s body).

  • Dave

    @natego – echoing what Matt said, I think there’s a certain point we have to trust the showrunners for what they’ve given us. When they say 3 years, they mean 3 years :) On-Island, off-Island, over-Island, under-Island… 3 years.

  • Matt

    @ Shara – this is highly unscientific, but based on conversations I’ve had with my less, shall we say, fanatical friends, those who aren’t as moved by the show to talk about it online seem to be less likely to love it.
    .
    And maybe it’s groupthink or I’ve just had more time to process it, but LaFleur has definitely moved up in my list. Josh’s performance tops Jorge’s in The Lie, who in my mind had the best “centric” episode til this.

  • Matt

    @ Shara – this is highly unscientific, but based on conversations I’ve had with my less, shall we say, fanatical friends, those who aren’t as moved by the show to talk about it online seem to be less likely to love the episode.
    .
    And maybe it’s groupthink or I’ve just had more time to process it, but LaFleur has definitely moved up in my list. Josh’s performance tops Jorge’s in The Lie, who in my mind had the best “centric” episode til this.

  • rhys1882

    I seem to recall Sawyer seeing Richard from the forest when him, Locke, and Juliet came across the Others camp in the 1950′s. Then he watched as Locke strolled into camp. I was straining to recall if Sawyer had any interaction with Richard before that, but don’t think so. Richard has remained pretty elusive from the rest of the Strandees, really only talking to Locke. Aside from his jaunts to the outside world, haven’t really seen much of him interacting with people on the island. Sawyer killed Locke’s father, the con man who led Sawyer’s dad to kill his mother and commit suicide, in the Brig of the Black Rock. But definitely very clever for him to use that knowledge to craft a more believable backstory.
    .
    What is very interesting is that the information about babies & mothers dying on the island. The suggestion is that whatever is causing it is a relatively recent development. Another theory is that it only affects the Others, since it was the Others who seemed to be having the problem.
    .
    Whether the baby turns out to be anyone will be interesting. I like the idea of Faraday. Other possibilities are Ethan or Goodwin.
    .
    For the love of god Sawyer, FORGET KATE. She’s an annoying pain in the ass. You knew her for like a few months, move on. He’s been with Juliet for a while now and she is so much more awesome. The whole unexplainable undying love thing is cliche and so BS.

  • natego

    @all.. how then why John is asked how long he is gone for he says 4 days, only to find out it was 3 years. If time moves the same on and off how do you all explain this???

    I’m still confused haha

  • jayne1365

    I think it would be way cool if the statue was made to look like Locke. There is the way that everyone around him is saying he is some sort of savior. Maybe Lock et al ended up in ancient times and now everyone worships him. What happened, happens…but what if what happened was done by someone that went back. No matter what you do, if you do it, it happens and then will have happened. I believe that is why Sawyer and Juliet successfully shot those guys, because it happened. They could not go back again and not shoot them

  • Matt

    @natego – that’s because John was time-travelling. When time moves normally on the Island – now that the skipping is over – it’s at the same pace as off-Island.

  • shara says

    @rhys1882: “For the love of god Sawyer, FORGET KATE. She’s an annoying pain in the ass. You knew her for like a few months, move on. He’s been with Juliet for a while now and she is so much more awesome.”
    .
    As much as I’ve defended Kate in the past, I am now in agreement with you. I used to really not even like Juliet, but she has totally grown on me over the last coupla seasons and now I think she’s awesome. She’s such a stronger, more likable, smarter, more stable character than Kate, and she would be a better mate for either Jack or Sawyer than Kate would be. She and Sawyer make a great team, and I don’t want Sawyer to toss her aside just because Kate shows back up after 3 years. Plus, with Kate around Juliet is back to being the underdog again, and i rarely fail to root for an underdog.

  • jayne1365

    You know Kate will pull the “I love you both” scenario. This is a chance for Sawyer to try and get back at Jack for taking Kate. Jack and Juliet also had a thing right before he left. This way, Sawyer has had both of Jack’s sloppy seconds.

  • Matt

    Y’know, this would be a good opporunity for a Flintstones Meet the Jetsons type-scenario… with Big Love. The Henricksons could teach Jack, Sawyer, Kate & Juliet the joys of polygamy.

  • neen86

    Fist-time poster here as well. I’m no good at coming up with my own theories, but I love reading everyone else’s. But, has anyone else entertained the idea that the two bodies Jack came across in the jungle awhile back could end up being Sawyer and Juliet? Not that it is important in the grand scheme…it just crossed my mind in light of last night’s episode and I thought I would share. :)

  • Rorschach

    I like that they go back to the 70s the same week Life on Mars is canceled

  • Dave

    @neen86 – That’s a definite possibility. After seeing the great chemistry between Juliet and Sawyer, I think more of us are hoping that Jack and Kate get banished to the caves, giving us more Juliet and Sawyer screen time :)

  • antilles13

    @jayne- Jack and Kate never actually hooked up until after they left the Island, and as far as we know he never had sex with Juliet (though there is a bit of a gap there when he was with the Others). So, technically, if anyone’s gettin’ sloppy seconds its Jack.

  • rize987

    Another first-time poster here. Anyone think that this is a possibility – Locke is not supposed to be Widmore/Ben’s replacement, but instead is either Richard’s replacement or addition to the island at Richard’s “level”. Neither Widmore nor Ben have shown any ability to see events outside their linear timeline (unless I missed it). When young Locke’s failed his test it always seemed to me that when he made the knife it was more about a choice he’ll make in the future that Richard didn’t approve of, rather than not knowing if it was his or not.

  • meg7

    Heyy guys, love reading all the comments here… a couple of thoughts I would like to share

    1. As far as I recall, Ben got his information from Michael as his spy on the Kahana. In that case Michael probably picked it up from the personal file on Charlotte (Which may have her birth date wrong, if her mother actually tampered with it so Charlotte would believe she was born in Essex and not on the island)….The scene with Daniel watching his future love as a young girl is so touching, I don’t think it would be the wrong girl

    2. The Anubis was a very good catch….It does look like the ankh is in his hand. Also the information on wikipedia contains the hieroglyphs of Anubis, which look very similar to the hieroglyphs in the swan station. Wasn’t it confirmed by the Damon and Carlton that they mean the underworld. And Anubis is the god of the underworld.

    3. My thoughts about the time travel. From the podcast after “Flashes before your eyes” and “The constant” Damon and Carlton said that though there are many ways to look at time travel they personally don’t like paradoxes. And so they referred us to the way Eloise Hawking describes time travel to Desmond is the way it is depicted on the show. I see many fans here using her phrase “course correcting”. But Damon and Carlton also said that what has happened can’t be changed (Something that Daniel said too) and they pointed out that what we have seen has happened, they won’t fiddle with time travel to change the future/past that they have shown the fans. If anything they did seemed to fiddle with that then “course correction” would kick in making sure that somehow the outcome is the same.

    I don’t know if I have been able to get my point across. (This was much clearer in my head). But as an example they pointed to the photograph of desmond and penny. Both of them have that picture. On from the past where they actually got the picture taken and Penny probably kept it and one from when Desmond’s conscious traveled back before he uses the fail safe and though he tried to change his destiny by taking the ring this time, and took the picture, he still broke up with penny and ended up on the boat. (I think Eloise made sure he messed up this second chance he got thus ending up in front of the fail safe).

    It is probably too late to hope for a reply but if any one is reading let me know what you guys think.

  • meg7

    I am sorry for multiple posts but I forgot to paste the relevant parts of the transcript of the podcasts I am talking about.

    ……….

    After “Flashes before your eyes”

    Carlton Cuse: So talk about Dam- uh Desmond’s flashback, Damon. I can’t say Damon and Desmond in the same sentence so. Did he really go back, or is that still questionable? What are the implications of his vision? And will he be able to harness this power?

    Damon Lindelof: Yeah, I guess it wasn’t really quite a flashback in the, in the conventional sense of the way that we do flashbacks on the show, you know, the reality of it is, this is more the experience that he had when he turned the fail safe key and obviously as evidenced by certain future memories that he’s having during his flashback. Uh, for the first time in the history of the show we actually allowed a character to have an opportunity to make a different choice than they make before and, uh, Desmond doesn’t. He is, he’s, he, he is, he is course corrected by, by a certain mysterious, uh, older lady in a ring shop. So uh, uh what, what was your question?

    Carlton Cuse: No, that was fine, that was -

    Damon Lindelof: Does that cover it?

    Carlton Cuse: When it comes to an answer, that pretty much covers it. Well, we’re – I suppose people want to know what does this mean?

    Damon Lindelof: Was it really – did it really happen?

    Carlton Cuse: Yeah did it really happen?

    Damon Lindelof: Uh, yeah! I think it really happened. I mean -

    Carlton Cuse: I think it did to.

    Damon Lindelof: You know, one of the things that we’ve tried very rarely to do on the show is to, to play something as only having been imagined or dreamed. And you know, I’d, I would, I would say that in the global sense of things, that Desmond, back in, you know back in the, the year 1996, actually had that experience. Now, I would venture to guess that in future flashbacks of Desmond’s, that they would be, treated as traditional flashbacks where he doesn’t really have any awareness of his destiny, but in this particular instance, uh, we went outside the box a little.
    Carlton Cuse: Right, I mean I think it’s, uh, it’s entirely possible he can have a traditional flashback story as well.

    Damon Lindelof: Absolutely, but I think what’s interesting is there are, there are certain things that happen the way that they used to happen, that he changed as a result of being in the past, that might sort of resonate over time, you know. Like getting hit in the face, instead of the bartender, or the fact that the photograph of he and Penny got take uh – got, got taken the day that he broke up with her. Maybe, maybe in a, in another incarnation there were two photographs, you know. Maybe they, maybe they’ve, maybe there was a two for.

    Carlton Cuse: You -

    Damon Lindelof: That would explain how she got one.

    ……………………………………………..

    After “The constant”

    Damon Lindelof: I remember when we first tried to present to people what the idea was, and they looked at us like we were speaking a foreign language, it was like – Desmond from 1994, his consciousness is time traveling into 2004 on the freighter, so the Desmond that we know and love is very confused, because it’s a guy from the past who’s currently in military camp.

    Carlton Cuse: Somehow it’s actually easier for people to entertain the notion of someone time traveling backwards, but the idea that the show is sort of set on the island in 2004 but someone is traveling forward from 1994, that was pretty hard to -

    Damon Lindelof: Just a quick sort of side note in terms of the way that we deal with time travel on the show – we are very paradox averse; that is to say, when our characters are time traveling, nothing that they do can change the present or the future that you have seen. Which is different than you know, the conventional Back to the Future time travel story telling.

    Carlton Cuse: Or Heroes.

    Damon Lindelof: Or Heroes, yeah.

    Carlton Cuse: For us, what we don’t want is for the audience to not be invested in the flash-forwards. When you see that, it would be pretty meaningless if they were a changeable reality-

    Damon Lindelof: Well, as far as time travel goes.

    Carlton Cuse: As far as time travel goes, yes.

    Damon Lindelof: As far as time travel goes, definitely not changeable.

    Carlton Cuse: Right. Or that you have a different Jack popping up in an alternative reality which is different than the one that we’ve established.

    Damon Lindelof: Right. That stuff is all really cool, I mean, the Heroes – case in point for all those who watch both shows, we certainly do and are big fans of Heroes – but if Hiro moves back to the past and says “There’s a catastrophe that’s gonna happen unless you guys save the cheerleader,” if they do save the cheerleader, then theoretically future Hiro never exists to come back and warn them. But you know, that’s paradox.

    Carlton Cuse: The hard thing about this episode was actually structuring the time travel elements – or consciousness traveling elements – and avoiding paradox. But that again is something that I think a lot of people have speculated about – “are there parallel futures, are there sort of multiple universes and worlds that exist in the future depending on how events in the past play out?” and that is not our intention.

    Damon Lindelof: Yeah, and Ms. Hawking basically explained those rules in the first episode, “Flashes Before Your Eyes” where she basically said that the universe has a way of course correcting, so even if you did something in the past that you didn’t do before, somehow the sort of fabric of time like swoops in around you and fixes everything so things don’t go off the rails. I assume probably after “The Constant” we’re going to get a lot of questions like “Well, did Penny know when she went to go see Desmond at the stadium in 2001 that he had told her to wait by the phone back in 1994?” and all of these questions, and to that we say refer to the Ms. Hawking scene in “Flashes Before Your Eyes”. She gives a fairly good explanation of how everything works.

    Carlton Cuse: Yeah, and you know the notion-

    ………………………………………..

    SORRY FOR SUCH A LONG POST…….You guys are much better at hashing out the time travel so looking forward to what is your take on this….

  • http://lost-blog.com/2009/03/critics%e2%80%99-reviews-of-episode-508-%e2%80%9clafleur%e2%80%9d/ Critics’ Reviews of Episode 5.08 – “LaFleur” | Lost Blog

    [...] 5. James Poniewozik (Time): [...]

  • jcrhoo

    Regarding the theory of Richard the Egyptian, I just want to make sure we’re not all just saying that because he looks like he wears eyeliner.
    -
    As others have pointed out, the actor isn’t wearing eyeliner and Darlton, IIRC, has said they didn’t really notice the eyeliner effect until fans started asking about it. Certainly, it seems, they didn’t cast that actor with the idea of using his unusually thick eyelashes to signify Egyptian roots.
    -
    If my logic is correct, then that means the original plans for Richard didn’t include “looking Egyptian” and they just got oddly lucky with an actor who has those eyes. The Egyptian background would then have to be retrofitted onto Richard, and I don’t think Darlton would retrofit such a key part of the mythology.

  • Dave

    @meg – that’s an excellent thing to point out. Like I said before, we all get pretty crazy in our theories (and throwing in time travel is a huge wild card that can go in so many directions), and it’s stuff like this that we need to be mindful of when we make our theories.

  • shara says

    Hola! I’ve got nothing more to add to the substantive discussion, just wanted to say Welcome! to all the new folks who’ve posted today.

  • antilles13

    @shara – hola? Don’t you mean “namaste!”?

  • shara says

    @antilles: indeed! Namaste, to all :) I always really, really look forward to the LDG comments and am glad that so many new folks are joining in. Hope everyone has a most excellent weekend!

  • meg7

    Namaste !! and thanks guys for the welcome….
    Why is there a two week break??

  • Dave

    I think Tom Shaw either referenced it in this thread or a past one, but with only 17 hours to the season, assuming a 2 hour finale, they need to throw in an empty week or two to get the Lost finale into sweeps week.

  • meg7

    Thank you Dave. It is my first time watching lost in America….used to watch in India and they would show back to back episodes….really miss that.

  • meg7

    I had a thought as I re watched the last two episodes. Is it possible that Ben didn’t flash back to the Dharma period because he is there as a child (or will come in the near future when Sawyer and Co. are part of the initiative)…..In the orchid out take video Dr. Chang is very concerned about both #15 rabbits being so close together. Maybe Ben should not cross paths with child Ben? just a thought.

  • gacuna

    wow i mean… so many questions, so many things to talk about… i mean, my answer could be so long that i rather post it in my own blog and send you the link later… BUT i just found about this blog, and it-is-great!!

    be c-ing ya!

  • http://www.approachinglost.com/2009/03/10/lost-508-metareview/ LOST 5.08 metareview

    [...] Time’s James Poniewozik: I can watch Dharma Initiative stuff until the second coming (of Locke, anyway), so I was in geek heaven with this one… [...]

  • http://sylvisual.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/lostwatch-508-give-peace-a-chance/ Lostwatch 508: Give Peace a Chance « Ten Screen Alley

    [...] be some meat here. Also, I had a better title for this entry, but TIME’s James Pozinewok stole it from my [...]

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