Tuned In

Lostwatch: I Gotta Have Faith

 

SPOILER ALERT: Before you read this post, buy some cord from the hardware store–no, don’t do that with it!–hook it up to your TV and watch last night’s Lost. 

 

I’m not going to write too much tonight about the mythology implications of last night’s episode of Lost. Partly because we knew the general shape of what was going to happen–minus the little bit about Locke coming back to life, which answers our question from the last LDG--and partly because we can speculate on that in the comments. But mostly because I want to talk about how awesome Terry O’Quinn is. 

John Locke is Lost’s man of faith. But he’s not, really, not entirely. He certainly has faith, in the Island, in the unexplained, but he also has doubt; his faith is constantly shaken and never as absolute as he wants it to be. When he goes to persuade Jack that he needs to go back to the Island, you can see in his searching popeyes that some part of him also wants to persuade himself–that he is special, that his “destiny” is not a mistake, that he’s not being swindled again. (Think about it: if one character on Lost has reason to have no faith, in anything or anyone, it’s John Locke.)

Take a look at the scene where he gets ready to hang himself. He’s not going into this calmly, as some sort of stoic sacrifice. He’s been told by Richard Alpert that he must die to save the Island, but he doesn’t entirely believe it, doesn’t entirely want to. You can see the despair in his eyes, the fear. He wants to die; he doesn’t want to die. The man of faith is a man of doubt. 

I was going to write that this undermines the Christ parallels that some have drawn for Locke, but thinking about it, it makes him more Christ-like–in the sense that you can feel him wishing, if I remember my Gospels correctly, that this cup could pass from him. Faith for him isn’t some Zen-like impermeable armor. It’s an ill-fitting burial suit. Faith is hard, and O’Quinn’s every-nerve-ending-exposed performance shows us that. You can feel every hurt, from the physical pain to his heartbreak over Helen. You know when you watch a Locke episode that your heart is going to get kicked around for a while; O’Quinn is just the athlete for that job. 

Now for the story stuff. It is indeed getting tough to tell the players without a scorecard, with not only the Oceanic Six back but two new regulars and a whole new team of redshirts. So let’s bring on the hail of bullets…

* …starting with the ones that offed Matthew Abbadon. I don’t know if this one was always in the works or necessitated by Lance Reddick’s work on Fringe, but I didn’t see it coming, which made that burst of blood on the rear window that much more surprising. (Reminded me of the accidental shooting in Pulp Fiction, but from the outside.) Probably not a bad idea to get rid of a ches piece with the board getting this crowded, but I’ll miss Reddick. 

* So what’s up with Caesar? Mrs. Tuned In tried to hash it out after the episode. I maintain that the first scene implied that he was deliberately looking for something–something he wanted to conceal–and thus that he knows a thing or two about the Island. Is he working for someone? Was he on that plane on purpose?  

* Meanwhile, a lot of questions, and some hints of answers, about the rivalry between Ben and Widmore. The O.G. Others, Charles says, defended the Island for “more than three decades.” So this doesn’t extend their lineage back to the stone-foot days–raising the question of who and what preceded them on the Island. And Ben supplanted Charles as leader by tricking him into leaving the Island. This still leaves the question: why does each of them want it? 

* Waaaaalt! Good to see him back, even if it was fleeting (and the “he’s been through enough” seemed like an offhanded way of explaining why he isn’t returning to the Island. I don’t expect Lost to answer every question it has raised, but if it leaves Walt’s specialness hanging, I’ll be ticked off. 

* I’m assuming that Ben ends up killing Locke (called it! along with half the Internet) because the info about Jin means he knows he can get Sun without Locke’s help. If I’m mistaken, let me know. Also, Ben’s voice breaking when he tells Locke he really will miss him was yet more proof of why Michael Emerson is so crucial to the show. 

* Oh, and speaking of the little matter of Locke being alive again–did he come back to life inside a sealed coffin? It must have been hard to resist the temptation not to show that scene. 

* Liked how “Jeremy Bentham’s” naming scene, for once, had fun with making the philosopher-name intentional. Also loved the scene with Hurley–terrified that John isn’t a ghost–and Locke’s rejoinder to Jack about Christian, which injected a little humor into a fairly somber episode. “Well, he didn’t look dead to me!” Neither do you, John. Neither do you.

Related Topics: lost
  • Latest on Entertainment

    Sony Computer Entertainment

    The 7 Most Promising PlayStation Vita Launch Games

    New system launch games are usually pretty dismal — look at what happened to the Nintendo 3DS — but the PS Vita’s looks unusually promising. Here’s a rundown of the seven Vita games we’re most looking forward to (and why).

    "The Woman in Black": A Good Old Fashioned Scary MovieSlate

    President Obama Made America A Mixtape

    According to his Spotify playlist, President Obama Likes Ricky Martin and REO Speedwagon

  • natego

    James! Typo in the Spoiler Alert!

    Thoughts..

    -FINALLY!! Some good scenes for the actors to dig their teeth into. Another excellent exchange between Ben and John. Even Jack sort of came through in his scene with John.

    -It seemed like they could have done more with John’s breakdown to suicide.. it seems like it sort of came out of nowhere. He seemed to have faith he could get them to come around, then all of a sudden he’s ready to hang like monkey. I feel like they could have shown a bit more to that end in the cemetary scene.

    -DANG IT!! No more Peg Bundy!!! :( :( :(

    -John had the best lines of the night. “This is the best mango I’ve ever tasted” etc..

    -Seems pretty obvious Ceasar is there for a reason, but I guess we can rule out working for Ben since he didnt seem to know who he was.

    -Can we finally end the theory that Walt has anything to do with Abbadon?

    -Poignant how Locke withholds the details of Michael’s (presumed) death from Walt.

    - Ben is an even worse mofo than we ever thought!!! He keeps getting more and more evil.. and I LOVE it! But, it’s seems weird – Why do Ben and Widmore both want the same thing (the O6 to return)??????

    OK I’ll stop!

  • James Poniewozik

    typo: “last night”? force of habit–still used to posting these in the morning. UPDATE: Oh, wait, I see. Fixed. Clearly too late for me to be typing.

  • antilles13

    Much, much, much better! Twas lacking a bit in “the funny”, but as shara mentioned yesterday, Locke’s episodes tend to go the painful, agonizing route. Good to see an episode where the actors get to really strut their stuff again.
    -
    There were a few continuity issues I can’t wrap my head around. For instance, I was under the impression Locke and Jack had a much more detailed conversation about what happened after the O6 left, based on what Jack told Ben in the S4 finale and throughout this season. Could they have had another conversation??? Also, if Widmore knew there was an “exit point”, why was there no camera there when Ben showed up in the desert? Another “new” memory after Locke met Widmore on-island, where Widmore knew Locke was eventually going to leave?
    -
    It’s late and there are so many questions, but three main things popped out to me:
    1. Abaddon re: Walt – “He’s gotten so much taller” (or something to that effect). How long – and for what purpose – have Abbadon and Widmore followed Walt?? Maybe we will get more concerning Walt’s “specialness” after all, since it seems like they’ve known about him for awhile.
    2. “The pilot and another woman ran off in the middle of the night?” Any guesses on the “other woman”? It’s not Kate, and I doubt it’s Sun. The only person that I could think of was Penny, since Lapidus knows her and she wasn’t one of the O6? Were Desmond and Penny on the plane too?
    3. Ben is such a huge mystery. Did he intend to kill Locke all along – and if so, why not just let him hang himself? (I guess he needed more info from him, but still.) The real thing that confuses me is whether Ben knew Locke would be reborn once he got back to the Island. His refusal to answer Jack’s question earlier (“He’s dead, right?”) seems to suggest yes. But why then the line about really going to miss Locke? (Though you’re right, James, that line was well-delivered. As was the “look of death” Ben gave Locke after the visit w/ Walt. Dude scares the bejesus out of me.)
    -
    Widmore was such an a-hole to Desmond that I really don’t want to accept him as “the good guy,” but I’m starting to get the feeling he is.

  • natego

    @antilles. I had the same thought about there not being cameras when Ben arrived, thanks for mentioning it. But, does explain why Ben was quick to kill the two guys he encountered knowing they probably worked for Widmore. and #2 I think it was Sun! She wants to find Jin desperately and don’t think it could be anyone else. She does know Lapidus so it makes sense.

    I’m starting to get the feeling that both Widmore and Ben both bad guys and are trying to use John for their own purposes, but in the end both will perish and John will be left to reign on the island. Sort of a “rags to riches”"underdog” story…

  • jcrhoo

    Seemed to me like Ben’s blood turned cold when Locke said Jin was still alive — and he REALLY didn’t like it when Locke mentioned going to see Eloise Hawking.
    -
    Also looked like Ben picked up Jin’s wedding ring as almost an afterthought — i.e., he didn’t kill Locke specifically for the ring.
    -
    My girlfriend and I might have to name our first daughter Eloise. Just, you know, FYI.

  • djtrudeau

    This isn’t vital to what happened last night, but a comment from before finally crystalized for me. The comment was “I know more about the Carthaginians than Hannibal.” Maybe this was pointed out before, but Carthage was in what is now Tunisia. The exit point from the island is right near the heart of the Carthaginian Empire. This might be the connection for some of the more ancient clues on the island.

    It still doesn’t explain four toes, though.

  • ptbiz

    Lost has become dreadful. It jumped the shark a year ago. It is now unwatchable and I have stopped watching.

  • Matt

    OK, not the most relevatory of episodes, but I thought it was still quite good. It opened up new doors (what made Sayid realize Ben was playing him? just who the hell is Abbadon anyway – and how did Widmore know to send him to Locke in the hospital, if it even was Widmore? oh, and HOW DID THE ISLAND RESSURECT JOHN???) and closed a couple that most of us had predicted/concluded (why does Widmore hate Ben? just *how* did Locke die?). I agree with whoever said above that this is Terry O’Quinn’s Emmy submission, and based on his last scene, Michael Emerson’s as well.
    .
    A “non-mythological” question is WHEN did Ajira crash. It certainly seems post-2004, in the “present”. The woman that ran off with Frank is probably Sun, I agree, but what about Sayid? I thought I saw him standing near the bonfire… but they never showed him. Why would some of the flashback and not others? Weird.
    .
    I’m guessing that next week’s episode forms a “trilogy” with the last two, revealing how our dispirate cast of characters – Oceanic 6, Locke, and Leftbehinds – each wound up together again.

  • Kemper

    A scene in this episode made me re-think one of my chronic complaints about the show. Namely, that even when the Losties found people who had information, they always got cryptic and confusing answers, and they never pressed the issue.
    .
    However, I was thinking about the scene with John and the woman on the beach. She’s understandably freaked about seeing several people mysteriously disappear from a plane, then it crashes, and then she finds someone who appears to have a clue as to what’s happening so she’s asking for answers.
    .
    I laughed because I was thinking about John trying to explain everything about how she ended up there. (Good luck with that..) And then it hit me that would be probably the same vibe that someone like Ben or Widmore would have when someone ask them to explain why they’re doing something.
    .
    And indeed, John just made some comments that we know are actually true, but are mostly jokes to himself about his current situation. He doesn’t even try to make the woman understand because it’d take too long and she wouldn’t believe him anyhow. The island must be experienced, it can’t be explained.
    .
    So while I still think some of my Lost frustration is due to avoiding straight answers to stretch the narrative, I’m willing to go along with the concept a bit more when thinking in terms of what it would be like for some one like Ben or Richard to try and just tell someone what’s been going on for the last several decades after thinking of how Locke would ever begin to explain his last 100 days to a newbie.

  • hold2file

    Thank you for reminding me why I DON’T watch “Lost” anymore.
    They convoluted “logic” you describe to explain the plot reminds me of the drugs I promised to stop using when I graduated college.
    I will wait for the “conclusion” (if any) to find out the “explanation” for the “engaging (to some) irrationality.”

  • Dave

    I’ll be honest… I was pretty disappointed last night. I don’t know if my expectations were too high or what, but at some point later in the episode, I looked at the clock and said, “Wow… it’s almost over. But nothing’s happened yet!” I suspect that was before Abaddon died (count me as another caught completely surprised by that).
    `
    My favorite parts of the episode, surprisingly enough, were the on-Island parts. Locke had that season one charm about him… call it a glow, I guess. He was just standing there on the beach, feet in the sand, eating a mango… and totally happy just to be alive. The only thing that would have made the scene better is if it were raining, and he had his same smile that he always has in the rain.
    `
    As disappointed I was in the Bentham story, I was surprisingly emotional when Locke was ready to kill himself. (This may be related to the fact that I watched the Exodus episodes of BSG S3 before Lost, and those episodes had emotions running plenty high) That’s definitely a nod to an excellent actor who’s able to just piss us off, over and over, with his character, and yet still make us care so much.
    `
    I didn’t notice Ben getting cold at the mention of Jin being alive (I was pretty tired, though). I thought it was the mention of Eloise Hawking that made him snap, though I don’t know why.
    `
    I’m curious about Island Voodoo right now. Assuming we can trust Christian (and yes, any time I say “assuming,” I say, “wait… can I assume that?”), the Island wanted Locke to leave and Ben to stay. Is it possible that Ben is just more in touch with Island Voodoo than Widmore was? I was surprised that Locke didn’t mention Jacob to Widmore… I was hoping to see how Widmore reacted (“You’ve spoken with Jacob?” Or “Who’s Jacob?”).
    `
    As for who Frank left with… I think it’s going to be an Other woman, sent by Richard Alpert to wait for the plane to crash there.
    `
    I’m wondering if Richard talking to Locke when he was jumping was a continuity error. I’m having trouble connecting the dots to put Locke giving Richard instructions on where and when to find him (at the plane, ~40-50 days after the 815 crash). But at the same time, the Others did know to build the runway for Lapidus to have a manageable crash site, so there must just be either a step I’ve missed or a step we haven’t seen yet.

  • Dave

    Hm… I wonder why my comment was awaiting moderation (maybe for mentioning B S G?). /shrug
    `
    While I wait for James to (hopefully) approve it, I’m going to make a general comment to the Lost faithful: Please ignore the haters. Apparently, some people who didn’t like the show (or one dude who REALLY didn’t like the show, but wanted to go to great lengths to trash talk it) are feeling the need to try to derail the conversations.
    `
    Let’s just ignore their comments and continue about our discussion :)

  • shara says

    “I’m assuming that Ben ends up killing Locke (called it! along with half the Internet) because the info about Jin means he knows he can get Sun without Locke’s help.”
    .
    I thought that it was a combination of: 1) Ben realizing that he now has an “in” with Sun; 2) Ben recognizing that Locke was going to stand directly in the way of using it; and 3) Ben getting the information that Ms. Hawking is the go-to-girl for getting back.
    .
    So, question – I’m wondering if there was a difference in effect whether Locke killed himself or Ben killed Locke. That question probably makes no sense, I’ll try again. Was Locke SUPPOSED to kill himself (leap of island faith, willing personal sacrifice), or was he just supposed to wind up being dead (with the means not mattering)? I’m just wondering if this is another example of Ben doing things that Locke is supposed to do himself (turning the wheel being the obvious precedent). Was Ben’s goal was to get information (like the info he got about Sun, Jin, and Ms Hawking), or to prevent Locke yet again from making a leap of faith and sacrifice (helping recreate the events of the originial crash) that Locke was meant to do (or both)?
    .
    I liked this episode MUCH more than I was expecting to. So, let me see if I’ve got this straight: Locke, Ben, the Ajira folks, Lapidus, and some unknown female are in the “present”. Jack, Kate, and Hurley are back in the Dharma Era with Jin, Sawyer, Daniel, Myles, and Juliet. Sun, Sayid, Rose, and Bernard are all currently unaccounted for. Right?
    .
    I assumed that whether we (the viewers) saw cameras or not, that Widmore’s people were watching the “exit spot” when Ben came through – which Ben knew, which was why he went all ninja on them when they showed up.
    .
    There was plenty of pain and anguish to make this a true-form Locke episode, so I was SOOOO glad that they started the episode with him smiling back on the island. So, this is a Lazarus-esque rising? My heart broke a little bit when Locke went to Helen’s grave. I thought it was a nice parallel between Abbadon trying to protect Locke from knowing the truth about Helen dying and Locke trying to protect Walt from knowing the truth about Michael dying. My heart continued to break into little pieces as person after person kept telling John that he was a deluded, useless old man. That was way harsh. And then that scene with Ben, with Locke thanking him for intervening, and trusting him – and Ben with that silky serpent voice, telling everyone just what they want to hear, I kept expecting something to happen but I was still shocked to actually see Ben kill Locke.

  • Dave

    @shara – I’d consider this a Lazarus-esque rising also, though we really haven’t seen *too* much of him on-screen. It’s possible it’s still Christian-esque, but it sure looks Lazarus-esque.

  • archstanton68

    the most interesting part for me was that Ben seemed agitated when Locke mentioned Eloise Hawking. that definitely seemed like the reason Ben killed him, with the business about Sun and Jin being a bonus.

    here’s what we know about Eloise:
    -she is openly and (apparently) willingly working with Ben
    -Widmore acts as if she’s also on his side
    -Both Ben and Widmore claim the other is the bad guy
    -Both Ben and Widmore show evidence of actually being the bad guy

    it’s going to be interesting seeing how these things are reconciled. my hunch is that both Ben and Widmore have bad intentions and Eloise is playing them against each other to further her own (and the island’s) goals.

  • Matt

    @Dave, Shara – Locke did touch someone, though… when he took the mango. Or did he only touch the mango? (Would that make a difference?) My point is that it certainly looks like he’s corporeal.
    .
    @Shara – Richard never said “you have to kill yourself”, he said “you’re going to have to die” and I *believe* Christian never said anything about suicide, either. So while I like the thematic connection of Ben usurping Locke again, I don’t think it actually matters. (That is, aside from the after-effects of none of us ever EVER trusting Ben again… until the writers make it seem like we should in a month or two)

  • James Poniewozik

    @Dave: Comment liberated. No idea why it was held, but it’s an automated spam filter, not the result of a human decision–most likely a potentially dirty word somewhere within a non-dirty word.

    And I agree… I have no problem who wants to post that they hate the show, but I think a general Lost-is-great / Lost-sucks argument is a waste of everyone’s time.

  • Dave

    @Matt – That’s true… the mango is probably the showrunners’ hat tip to us all saying, “Look, he’s freaking real! You don’t need to think about it any more!” :)
    `
    For the record, I still think Ben’s a good guy.
    `
    It seems like Locke has more time traveling to do, but I wonder if that’s going to be farther down the line.

  • Dave

    @James – thanks :) I’ll try to avoid any bad words I don’t know are bad words.

  • Tom Shaw

    I’m having a hard time getting ahold of the Ajira timing. The buildings seemed well maintainted, but old (rust on the doors in the Locke/Caesar conversation). I’d guess they are at the Hydra in the 2004+ era. (Yes, the folder had the Hydra logo. No, that doesn’t mean anything with this show.) Of course, there’s no guarantee of 2004 vs. 2008 – after the Freighter threat was over, the Others could have stayed on the main Island until 2008.
    -
    And I too think “the woman” Frank left with is Sun. Which is odd, that everything is conspiring to keep Jin & Sun apart. Was Jin not supposed to live? Is that the source of Ben’s worries? Or is it simply that with Jin alive, Sun would have no reason to kill Widmore? (Remember that Ben had Widmore dead to rights in his bedroom. The Rules might prevent Ben from directly harming Widmore, but he was probably hoping he could skirt them by arranging Sun to do it. Ben had to toss that card in favor of self-preservation when Sun had him at gunpoint on the dock though.)
    And yes, it is odd they haven’t given us any clue as to when Sayid ended up. Are we making a mistake in assuming its limited to one of the two time periods?
    -
    I too was confused about Ben’s murdering John. At first I thought The Island just had some Catholic rule against suicide, until Ben honestly both seemed sorry John had to die and thought it was permanent. The turning point seemed to be Hawking’s mention, which makes me wonder about the whole history we don’t know:
    Did Widmore, upon becoming leader, go legit and form the Dharma Initiative with various Others (like Hawking), but mostly outsiders, until Richard disagreed with their scientific focus and started the armed resistance of “Natives” that ended in The Purge? (The problem being that the Dharma-made building on top of the Wheel tens to suggest it hasn’t been used since before The Purge.)
    Was Widmore leader of the Others during the DI’s takeover of The Island, fighting a low level guerrilla war with them, until his last act as opposition was to use The Wheel during “The Incident”? Were we already given a hint to this, that Dharma on The Island uses primarily 1980s tech, even though they had control until 1992? (I.e. they were stuck using the old tech after The Wheel interrupted their supply lines. They eventually got the sub system working again, but you can’t bring in mass materiel that way.)
    -
    The real problem is we don’t know if this is a single conflict (Others vs. Dharma (with Widmore as DI)), or two conflicts (Others vs. Dharma, and Ben vs. Widmore (with Widmore as Other)). Until that gets cleared up, we don’t have any framework to slot our other information into.

  • Dave

    @Tom – I was under the impression (I’ll try to find the podcast for you when I get a chance) that Ben and Widmore can’t die because the Island isn’t done with them, a la Michael not dying until the freighter explodes and Christian tells him he can go now. That’s why Ben was never afraid to get beat up – he knew they couldn’t kill him.
    `
    The more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Widmore never believed in Jacob. That’s why he said that Ben tricked him into leaving the Island.
    `
    I don’t think Widmore started the DI. Remember, he was plenty violent when he was ready to cut off Juliet’s hand. I think the Dharma/Hostile conflict was separate from the Ben/Widmore conflict.

  • Dave

    Also, I think that the Others weren’t on the Hydra island because Ben’s gone. We saw Richard’s contempt for Ben’s science stuff… once Ben was out of the way, and the landing strip was built, there was no reason for them to be over there.

  • Tom Shaw

    Re: the cameras. I don’t think they were there for Ben’s trip (it had been decades since anyone used The Wheel). Widmore had them installed after Ben showed up in his bedroom to see who else popped in.

  • tenderfeet

    @Tom Shaw – Thank you for catching the Hydra logo; I was getting stumped as to which station they were at and had blanked on the Hydra.
    .
    As for the timing, my guess is they’re in 2008. If the entire plane was going to time-jump, why would it end up in a different time than the 06? Seems more likely that the 06 jump back (for whatever reason), while the Ajira flight stays in 2008.
    .
    I’m with Dave that the Dharma/Hostile conflict is separate from Ben/Widmore. I think Ben/Widmore may have got caught up in the Dharma/Hostile conflict and influenced it as they could, but always to their own ends first (and I have zero evidence to back this up).

  • jilliebean11

    so, helen died of a brain aneurysm? sounds…familiar…

    any thoughts?

  • Tom Shaw

    Dave, I’ll admit that the latter option seems more internally consistent. If pressed, I would put the timeline as:
    ~1950s: Widmore becomes leader. Remember, Richard said their leaders were picked as children. 17-year old Widmore could have already been “leader” (as much as you can lead a group that has a member that’s been around for possibly centuries). Actually, writing this out, I now wonder if the apparent “Don’t harm children” Rule stems from that.
    ~late 1960s/early 1970s: Dharma shows up. Perhaps Dharma & The Others have an uneasy truce that allows Dharma to do their science; Dharma keeps growing and starts crowding The Others out. The Others turn to violent resistance, but are undergunned by this point. Hawking switches/goes undercover to the DI side?
    ~mid 1980s: The Incident. Daniel unearths The Wheel; Widmore uses it to ruin the DI’s logistics. Widmore lands in Tunisia, Ben takes over as leader. The Swan is damaged in the process, necessitating the Numbers reset. The Orchid is built over The Wheel. (Is the Lamppost constructed now, to find The Island in the 1980s?)
    ~mind 1980s until 1992: Decline of the Dharma Empire. Dharma eventually gets sub service restarted; they possibly evacuate all children from The Island (Miles & Charlotte leave at this point). They continue to lose ground vs. The Others, culminating in The Purge.
    1992 until 2004: Ben era.
    -
    And yes Dave, I too think that now that the Ben era is over, Richard’s warriors are probably in control.

  • natego

    I’m still confused as to why Ben and Widmore seem to want the same thing – for John to go back and become leader and for the 06 to return. I wonder where the split occurs from this sequence for each. I still maintain that we are in a Something About Mary situation. Everyone (Ben/Widmore/Hawking) wants the sexy girlfriend all to themselves and secretly screw around with each other through tricky to win her, but in the end the winner will be the poor schlub who has the genuine sweetness (John).

  • Tom Shaw

    @jilliebean11: Yes, it is convenient that even more loved ones are dying to remove any reason the 815ers have to not go back, isn’t it?

  • shara says

    I was just reading Doc Jensen’s recap and there was a suggestion there that Helen might not really be dead, that the tombstone might have been faked in order to trigger an emotional response from John, and keep him focused on his task. It put me in mind of a scene in the Outlander series (my favorite books ever), which is a story about a woman who travels back in time through ancient stone circles. She goes from the 1940s to the 1740s, falls in love (with a “man of faith”), and decides to stay. A few years later, she is forced to return to the present – although time tracks the same in both times, so she returns (pregnant) a few years later than when she left. She somewhat dysfunctionally reunites with her 1940s husband (a hard-nosed “man of science” who is driven to find answers to everything), and he learns about where she’s been and he secretly puts up a fake tombstone with her 1740s husband’s name on it, for reasons that remain somewhat unclear (was it to give her some closure? to provide the daughter with an opportunity to ask questions? something else?). But the point was, it was a totally fake tombstone designed to manipulate people into moving in a particular direction. I’d definitely like the idea of Helen not really being dead. FYI, the Outlander books (by Diana Gabaldon) also have echoes of “constantizing”, as during her time travels she has to have a “root” in a particular time period or she will be forever trapped in this blinding flashing that is pulling her in all directions at once, and address questions of how a time traveler could have an impact on the future and the past. I’m sure they have nothing to do with the show, but they’re really interesting reading.

  • archstanton68

    the chronology of Widmore’s exile is a bit confusing. he said he was 17 in 1954, which makes him roughly 70 in his most recent appearance. from what we know about Penny, he’s likely been off the island for most/all of her life, which puts Widmore off the island by the mid-70′s at the latest. we also know that Ben arrived as a kid about that same time, but was just a lowly DI “employee” for quite a while until the purge. was Ben’s arrival and selection as the future leader the catalyst for Richard to sent Widmore packing (which in itself was just a stall until Locke took over)? Widmore’s age and known history suggests he’s lived normally (chronologically speaking, no time-traveling monkey business) up to present day. as usual, we get some answers that only raise more and more questions.

  • natego

    Anyone notice that Helen’s Date of Death was 4/8/06 (two of the Numbers)

  • markustrombonus

    I want to know what happened to Aaron. Anyone care to speculate on that?

  • markustrombonus

    Disregard my last comment, that was covered last week!!

  • jilliebean11

    No no, what i was referring to was the fact that Helen suffered the same fate as Minkowski and Eloise (rat)…

  • Matt

    @archstanton – it’s probable that when Widmore turned the wheel (i don’t remember, did he explicitly mention that’s what he did?) he got sent into the past. OOOHHH, new thought! What if “future Ben” usurps Widmore? So Ben is the leader of the Others in the 90s, then after what we’re seeing now, goes back in time and becomes the leader AGAIN?

  • tactedresser

    several questions:

    1. What station or location was Caesar searching? Looks like an abandoned office. Begs the question of where exactly on the island did the plane crash.

    2. Why are the O6 the only people on the plane who disappeared and not Ben and/or Locke? The writers will have to explain why only a select few can ‘time-travel’.

    3. Speaking of time traveling, the logic the writers are using with the island’s history is frustrating. Widmore remembers Locke from 1954. Desmond remembers Faraday from their sequence. However the chronology of events make no sense. 1954 happened before 2004 or whenever Oceanic 815 crashed, yet it appears the consequences of the crash in 2004 triggered events subsequent to 1954. A reverse destiny of sorts. A 50 year old Locke tells a 1954 Richard to find a yet to be born Locke, but the only reason why Locke is talking to Richard is because of the 2004 plane crash. it’s mind-numbing.

  • Tom Shaw

    @archstanton68:
    Oof, I totally forgot about Penny. She is supposed to be at least 30 in 2004, I’d say. So now we’re stuck with two options:
    1) Penny was born on The Island too, and was evacuated at some point. Then my timeline can exist as is. Con: Who wasn’t born on The Island at this point.
    2) Penny was conceived only after Charles used The Wheel. So Charles has been in the real world for 30 years minimum by 2004, meaning Charles used The Wheel no later than ~1974 (admittedly, The Charles Wheel may not be The Incident). Con: Someone (presumably) has to dig up The Wheel before Charles can use it. Do we think the DI is there in force by 1974?
    (Charles would also have to be anointed leader by 1944, at age 9. Which isn’t that much of a problem – in fact, young Widmore’s performance makes more sense if he a petulant child that no one actually heeds: his showdown with Richard shows who is really in charge.)
    -
    At this point, I still think option one is more likely: They are well-off Brits after all, and whether or not Penelope’s mom is alive, her upbringing in boarding schools would probably remain unchanged. (Has Penny ever even mentioned her mother?) I’m loathe to assume yet another person was born there though.

  • archstanton68

    @Tom:

    -if Widmore was 17 in 1954, he appears to have aged normally. that would put him at around 70, which looks about right. any time jumping he did doesn’t appear to have been more than a few months/years. the wild-card here is Penny. was she born on the island? how did she know to look for it and how much does she know?

    -are we assuming too much in saying Widmore turned the wheel? was that ever explicitly stated? we have Ben saying that whomever moves the island can’t come back (another lie, since he got back?) and Widmore saying Ben tricked him and “took” the island from him. is it possible that Widmore’s exile is not wheel-related?

  • Chaddogg

    Sorry everyone — I was in court for work, so I’ve had no time to post as of yet. Nonetheless, off to the bullets:
    .
    - Why Ben killed Locke: I have a theory here that I want to kick around. What if Ben’s killing of Locke was a MISTAKE? No, not like he slip, fell, and accidentally strangled Locke with an extension cord — but if he killed him for a mistaken purpose? I’m basing this on Ben’s reaction to what Locke said about Jin and Mrs. Hawking. What if Ben thinks that Locke’s comment that “Oh, I promised Jin I wouldn’t bring Sun back” is an indication that his OWN banishment from the island for turning the wheel is not a law. In other words, Ben has been on his get-even tour thinking revenge is all he has left because he cannot return to the island, but Locke’s statement changes that — he CAN go back, if its possible for not all of the Oceanic 6 to return.
    .
    This would be a complete misconception though — John was ordered by Christian/Jacob to bring everyone back, but had just chosen on his own to ignore Sun out of fidelity to his promise to Jin. In reality, Ben has now committed a GRAVE sin by returning to the island (which the turner of the wheel is forbidden to do, unless, like Locke, dead), something that will ignite/incite this war that Widmore mentioned. Speaking of Widmore…
    .
    - Widmore – good? Ben – bad? Abbadon and Hawking – neutral?: I had this theory as well. What if we believe Widmore as a good guy, but one, ultimately, gifted by the island’s time travel capabilities with some foresight as to the future or possible futures. Doesn’t his “sending” of Desmond on the race perhaps play differently? Desmond does “save” the world by pressing the button/turning the key, but he also is able to fall in love with and secure the love of Penny due IN PART to their separation. What if Widmore, knowing that Desmond was right for his daughter but that certain “prerequisites” had to be met on Desmond’s path to make the relationship ideal, had manipulated the whole thing?
    .
    Now, Ben is trying to unwind that — threating to go after Penny. Ben, again, is bad. (Really, when has he not been?)
    .
    That leaves Abbadon and Mrs. Hawking — who I believe are, for lack of a better term, mediators or referees (and perhaps for the side of good) in this dispute. Abbadon may “work” for Widmore, but his role is, really, just to get people to where they need to be (very “Virgil” in Dante’s Inferno-esque, guiding Locke where he needs to go – Abbadon is, in one interpretation of the Bible, the angel of death, guiding, in this case, Locke to his death, but in a much more benign sense of the Angel of Death moniker than we’d think).
    .
    Hawking is a tougher case — why does Ben kill Locke, rather than go with him to Hawking? I think it’s because Hawking, while gifted with some spiritual guide powers for purpsose of the Island, herself is not clear on the rules. If Locke had been ALIVE, and told her that he was not bringing Sun, she would have realized that no special requirement that all the Oceanic 6 be on the plane existed….however, with him DEAD, Ben can manipulate her “theory” that all that left the island must return as a means for HIM to get back with them, despite the violation of the law this represents.

  • Chaddogg

    A couple other thoughts/questions:
    .
    - We’re pretty settled that Sun went with Lapidus on the boat right? I mean, I’m fairly sure that’s the case — after all, once they realized they were on the OTHER island (and they are, correct — hence the fact some type of Sully Sullenburger landing was possible, and the Dharma Hyrdra station offices?), I’m sure Sun was hell-bent on heading over to find Jin, and Frank offered to go with her (partially out of guilt that he left Jin behind?).
    .
    - Then where the hell is Sayid? If you were Sayid, and you just landed BACK on the island you DIDN’T want to return to (and, potentially, as a convict), where would you go? This, to me, is the BIGGEST mystery of the episode.
    .
    - Speaking of the boats, I think we know have (something) of a timeline — Sun and Lapidus go over to the main island. Then another boat (presumably with gun-toting folks) follows them over to figure out where they went). Sawyer/Locke/Juliet/Miles/Charlotte/Faraday find one of the boats, and take it. The gun-toting Ajira survivors (with or without Sun and Frank) go after them, firing on them, when a jump happens….make sense?
    .
    - Walt the prophet? He predicted Locke on the island, dressed in a suit, surrounded by people who wanted to hurt him. Did this happen already? Are the fellow Ajira passengers actually Widmore or Ben “plants” or a smuggled “strike force” to retake the island — explaining why Caesar is rifling through documents, trying to make a plan/gather weapons for their invasion — and Locke “appearing” is a threat to their plan? (Under this theory, they’d probably be under Ben’s control — he built the runway, after all). Or is that coming soon? And have we seen the last of Walt?

  • shara says

    @Chaddog – do we know for sure whether or not Jack, Kate, and Hurley are in the same time period as the Ajira passengers? My impression was that Jack, Kate, and Hurley had been yanked off the plane to flash back in time to the Dharma era, while Ben, Locke, and the Ajira folks had landed in the “present” (as indicated by Sawyer and co finding the run-down future version of their camp + the Ajira waterbottle), and Sun and Sayid are MIA. Am I making this way too complicated in my head?

  • Matt

    @Shara – No, that’s exactly what I think is the case. Not *too* complicated. Although I’m completely uncertain about the woman who left with Frank. If it’s Sun, the question is “why didn’t she flash-back” and if it isn’t Sun, the question is “who the heck was it?”
    .
    @Chad – Unless Hawking & Widmore are in cahoots, which I’d beleive but I haven’t seen any evidence of, I don’t see how the passengers of 316 could be “plants”, because how could Widmore know *which* flight the O6 would be on? And I highly doubt we’ve seen the last of Walt.

  • rhys1882

    Lapidas might have run off with Sun simply because they both set out to find the other Oceanic 6 members. The other woman I can guess would be the flight attendant who seemed to figure prominently in the plane scene as well.
    .
    Remember Ben killed those guys when he popped out from the Island? Maybe they were Widmore’s men and were scouting out the exit.
    .
    My theory as to why Ben killed Locke is because Locke mentioned Ms. Hawking. I think Ben actually was trying to prevent Locke from getting back to the island, which is why he killed Abaddon, and when he heard he knew about Ms. Hawking, i.e., someone who would be able to get him back to the island, he opted to kill him and stage the suicide he had already been planning.

  • shara says

    @Chaddog – If I were Sayid, and didn’t want to be there in the first place, and didn’t want to be used as a pawn by an Endgamer (a term that I’m gonna use to describe Ben, Widmore, Ms. Hawking & co), I’d either head straight to Rosseau’s hideout (private, hidden but he knows how to get there, possibly with weapons and dynamite), to the Dharma station with all the cameras watching everything, or to the Black Rock to monitor the remaining dynamite. I’d lay low, stock up on munitions, and watch to try and figure out what the heck was going on, and then turn up later at an opportune moment.

  • shara says

    That is, if Sayid lands in a post-Rosseau time. If not, then I’d say the Black Rock or an abandoned Dharma station.

  • Dave

    Argh. Today exploded on me at work, so I have a lot of catching up to do over lunch.
    `
    First of all, I think this was touched on since it was posted, but re: Tom’s timeline – I think that the DI had an earlier presence on the Island than we’re giving them credit for. They built at least a few stations and recorded the videos, I believe, in the early- to mid-60′s. (I don’t remember what song Chang put on the record player in the beginning of Because You Left, otherwise that would give us a better hint) We don’t have exact dates for Ben’s birth, but I believe we’re to assume he was born in the early 60′s, putting him on the Island ~10, in the early 70′s. When the Linuses got to the Island, it looked like Chang’s arm was already gone, putting them on-Island after the Purge (assuming that Chang lost his arm in the Purge).
    `
    We don’t know what time Locke was in when he turned the FDW, but we saw that there was definitely a path to the wheel. Judging from Because You Left, something apparently closes off the FDW from its path (and makes it very, very cold to be in there).
    `
    I think Lapidus left with an Other woman, who was there under Richard’s instruction. I think the plan landed/crashed in 2008 (ie in realtime; the plane did not jump at all), and the 5 Losties on the plane got ganked back to the mid-60′s. Maybe Sun and Sayid got picked up by the Hostiles, or maybe they just ended up elsewhere in Dharmaland.
    `
    To me, the biggest question right now, is this: how does Locke manage to give Richard detailed instructions on where to find him and where to build the runway? I can only assume that the Losties in Dharma times now are going to more time jumping, but Locke is definitely alive, on the Island, in the present.

  • shara says

    @Dave “When the Linuses got to the Island, it looked like Chang’s arm was already gone, putting them on-Island after the Purge (assuming that Chang lost his arm in the Purge).”
    .
    Waitaminute, now I’m confused. I thought that Ben was the one who led the Purge (the gas attack, right?). My impression was that Chang either lost his arm during The Incident or to the Hostiles (Widmore’s arm-cutting-off crew).

  • profdante

    Regarding the current whereabouts of the prominent Ajira flight attendant: She’s obviously wherever Cindy ended up, right? :)

    I actually haven’t watched this episode yet, but I already feel like I know/knew what was going to happen anyway.

  • Dave

    D’oh, thanks Shara. I meant the Incident. Too many events to keep straight. :)
    `
    I meant that the Linuses got there post-Incident, assuming Chang lost his arm in the Incident.

  • Dave

    @profdante – Most of the major points really were just confirmations of our predictions. But there were still some surprises :)

  • alex9432

    Okay, I’m going to address the “who’s good-or-bad: widmore or ben?” question with a theory:

    Remember the last episode. Jack has the after-school session with Faraday’s mum, and then sees Ben lighting a candle in Alex’s memory. When he’s about to leave, he makes a comment (I’m sorry, I can’t remember the exact comment, but it was deliberately ambiguous) and then when he calls Jack, he says that he got delayed and that’s when he’s all beat up. He’s at a marina; Desmond and Penny sailed from Oxford to LA. Presumably, in a bit of eye-for-an-eye, Ben killed Penny and maybe Charlie. He does, however, seem to be EMOTIONALLY upset (physical pain doesn’t bother him, nor does killing people: Keamy, the Widmore Bedoins that accosted him when he Moved). Probably, killing innocent Penny wasn’t as vindicating as he thought it would be. And since he doesn’t have any show to put on, there’s reason to believe that he is genuinely sorry that this happened.

    -
    And why did he kill Locke? Ben is, despite his manipulativeness, jealousy, and childishness, genuinely concerned with the well-being of his people and the island. He, a man of science (like Jack, not like Widmore) has no patience with Locke’s blundering, misguided attempts to get the Oceanic Six to come back. After he got the information he needed, Ben killed Locke to facilitate the trip back to the island – not because hearing Ms. Hawking really made him mad, or that he hates Jin. Ben loves the island, but the island needs a man of 100% faith: that’s why only John knows about the resurrection powers of the Island, and Ben (by comparison) only fumbles in the dark.

  • natego

    @alex I still don’t know how people who think that because Ben was at the Marina that he killed Penny can explain how they sailed from England to LA in that short of time? Anyone?????

  • alex9432

    Remember that the Desmond storyline is really, really, out of sync with the rest of the group. In one episode we saw him scramble to find a doctor to deliver Charlie, sail on his boat with Charlie as a toddler, and decide to go to Oxford. Unless the marina shot is an excellent attempt at misdirection, it’s just laying the groundwork for the flashback episode where it’s “revealed” why Sayid hates Ben and charts the Ben-Widmore conflict from around the time when Locke is murdered.

  • Chaddogg

    @natego — way to hit the nail on the head. Penny/Desmond didn’t sail to Los Angeles (the boat wasn’t really designed for that type of sailing across the Atlantic, by the way)….
    .
    No, there is something ELSE about the marina that we’re missing. It is, after all, where Ben brought the Oceanic 6 to meet up (and where Sun pulled her gun), so the question is – WHY did he bring them there? What was THERE for him to show them? Was that some type of base for him? Or did they go there (as I am now thinking, under my “still evil Ben” theory) so that Ben’s minions could FROM THERE, track them and make sure all the Oceanic 6 ended up on the plane?
    .
    I’m more and more convinced Walt’s line wasn’t just a throw away — that is BEN’S people on that Ajira plane. Ben had the runway built, Ben knew (that night) what flight they’d all be on, and Ben KNEW that he had to get the Oceanic 6 (through coercion, trickery, or whatever) onto that plane so that HE could return and take his island over.
    .
    So why was he bloodied on the pier? I’m thinking he encountered someone else, and/or killed someone else. My guesses: (1) Ms. Hawking (who learned that Ben had not “left the island” but rather had spun the wheel — when she went to stop him from returning because he was not allowed he killed her); (2) the Butcher lady (covering up a loose end?); (3) Widmore (not likely — too much story left for him to do so, and Ben said he’d kill Penny first).

  • natego

    Im confused. Is this an explanation?

  • adriaezn

    My roommate is convinced that one of the men in the pick-up truck that drove Locke back from the middle-of-nowhere, Tunisia was Ceasar – but we don’t have TiVo, and I think he may just be confused/racist…can anyone clarify this for me?

  • natego

    @Chad Thanks for the validation here – glad to hear im not crazy.

    Re: (2) I think the butcher lady was a former other so I don’t see ben killing her. I do think it was either 1) Hawking that he fought with or 2) One of Widmore’s goons trying to kill him.
    .
    I highly agree with your second paragraph.

  • shara says

    @Chaddog & natego – I’m just not sure about the Desmond-Penny thing. It seems like they have been sailing the seas on that boat for awhile (whether its realistic for that particular model of boat or not), and I don’t think that alex9432 is off-base about the Desmond timeline not necessarily matching up to anyone else’s timeline. I don’t remember any time markers (could have missed it) for Desmond’s trip to England. Do y’all remember any? It seems unlikely, but not impossible, for Ben to have a run-in with Desmond/Penny/Charlie at the marina (even if in reality it would be a ridiculously unlikely scenario for them to sail all that way).

  • antilles13

    I’ve been on the road all day w/out a computer (hence the late-night post yesterday), so I missed all the good stuff on here today.
    -
    I’m curious why everyone’s convinced it’s Sun that went with Lapidus. Bear with me for a moment… I was assuming all of the O6 ended up in the same time period – the period our other Losties were in – b/c they’re all part of the same “group”. They came to the Island at the same time, and left at the same time, so they are all interconnected. So I was assuming Sun and Sayid were in the same time period as Jack & Co., they just hadn’t caught up together yet – just like Jin was jumping around in sync with Sawyer & Co., as was Locke. Locke wasn’t included with them and ended up in the “present” because (1) he was dead and (2) he left the Island at a different time. Ben wasn’t part of that group because (1) he left in a different manner, and (2) he’s being punished b/c he wasn’t supposed to come back (and that’s why he got hurt). Maybe that’s all a stretch, but I just don’t think its Sun. I guess I just think it would be cooler if it turned out to be some type of shocker.
    -
    Also, there seemed to be some question of whether that was teh Hydra – w/ the notebook symbol not being conclusive. But it has to be the Hydra – there was a clear shot of Locke on the beach looking out into the ocean, looking directly at the main Island. They have to be on the Hydra island. (I thought it was a pretty poignant shot actually, with that awesome smile plaster on Locke’s face, a la S1 as Dave mentioned).

  • jpoisal

    Is there an archive of older Lostwatch posts for each episode of the season?

    If so, where would I find it. I’ve searched to no avail.

  • Tom Shaw

    @antilles – Yes, the simplest answer is that all the O6ers landed in the same time period. But how often is the simplest answer the right one on this show?
    -
    @jpoisal – No, there’s no way to search for relevant topics. But the archive is easy enough to go through – just look at, say, Lostpedia to find when a given episode aired in the US, and (because James usually posts the day after) add a day.
    E.g.: “Par Avion” aired March 14th, 2007. So put this in your URL:
    http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2007/03/15/
    and scroll down until you find the post for the episode.
    (Note: that doesn’t get you the summer freeform LDG posts. But aside from the humor value of “Oh how little we knew”, there’s probably not that much value there. Still, they were usually posted on the day of the week the reviews came up – Fridays last year, etc.)

  • http://www.christandpopculture.com/asides/christ-figure-alert/ Christ Figure Alert! | Christ and Pop Culture

    [...] Lostwatch: I Gotta Have Faith :: Tuned In – TIME.com. (No Love Yet)  Loading [...]

  • shara says

    @Tom Shaw and jpoisal (and James): I recently went back to re-read theories and postings from previous seasons. I found the old postings pretty easily (you can go to wikipedia, “list of lost episodes” to get a list of airdates), but no comments at all. Did they all disappear when the blog got switched over? Because it totally sucks if all the old comments are lost (ha!) forever.

  • Dave

    @antilles – I agree that Sun is back in Dharma times with the others.
    `
    I’ve touched on it a couple of times in this thread, but people are just too keen to talk about other things :) But I want to get my thoughts down, so I can claim victory when it actually plays out (yes, that comment was tongue-in-cheek):
    `
    Locke is either going to go back in time to tell Richard (or somehow communicate through time to Richard) 1) that Richard needs to go find Locke next to the fallen Beechcraft sometime at night between November 1st and November 10th, 2004, and 2) that Richard needs to build a runway on the Hydra island, so that Frank can crash the plane in such a way that everybody on the plane doesn’t die. Is Frank another “listable” person, prompting Richard to leave someone on the Hydra island with the outriggers to bring Frank back?
    `
    Or might the woman be an undead Charlotte or Naomi?

  • alex9432

    @ matt- your last suggestion was one I entertained for awhile – judging from last night’s preview, the “mystery woman” has curly hair (Charlotte) and there’s possibilities of coming back what with the time-jumping and all, but Rebecca Mader (who plays Charlotte) said that she was sad her character died and that her time on LOST came to an end.
    -
    And no, I don’t think that Sun left with Lapidus, because she would have been caught in whatever warp pulled the rest of the Oceanic 6 out of the plane; people just default to assuming that because she’s the only Oceanic Six woman and she isn’t seen with Jumpin’ Jack and the rest (that was a sick dive, by the way).

  • http://www.approachinglost.com/2009/02/27/lost-507-metareview/ LOST 5.07 metareview

    [...] Time’s James Poniewozik: You know when you watch a Locke episode that your heart is going to get kicked around for a while; O’Quinn is just the athlete for that job. [...]

  • http://www.sl-lost.com/2009/02/28/reviews-for-the-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham/ sl-LOST.com – Daily LOST News » Blog Archive » Reviews for “The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham”

    [...] 5. James Poniewozik (TIME.com): [...]

  • http://lost-blog.com/2009/02/reviews-for-%e2%80%9cthe-life-and-death-of-jeremy-bentham%e2%80%9d/ Reviews for “The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham” | Lost Blog

    [...] 5. James Poniewozik (TIME.com): [...]

blog comments powered by Disqus