Tuned In

Lostwatch: Ships That Pass in the Night

SPOILER ALERT: Before you read this post, grab the gun stashed in your box of chocolates and watch last night’s Lost. 

With “The Little Prince,” you can tell how much Lost has been affected, for the better, by the decision to set a series end date. For much of the series, every episode, no matter what the focus, would emphasize a particular character (in flashback or flash-forward) to give the episode a narrative thread and an emotional core. This episode didn’t really have that. I suppose it was nominally Kate-centric, but really her arc wasn’t much more significant than any others. (At this point, I don’t really know whether to blame Evangeline Lilly or the writers for Kate’s lack of emotional impact—what did this episode say about her, except to confirm that she really is attached to Aaron?—but I’m just glad they didn’t spend an inordinate amount of time on it.) 

Compared with Lost episodes from last season—even compared with last week’s “Jughead,” which focused on Daniel Faraday—this episode didn’t really have a center: there was a little of this and a little of that, half Island, half L.A. And yet despite that—and despite the fact that, at this point, I’m not half as interested in the Oceanic 6 as the Island folk—there was so much story going on (because, with less than two seasons left, there has to be) that it almost didn’t matter. 

I mean, good God: Jin! Alive! And not in the way that we probably always expected he’d turn up alive, but rescued by… Rousseau’s freaking French science boat! Miles—probably Marvin Candle’s baby! (Right? What else could the nosebleed have implied?) Season 5 characters coming across season 1 characters! (Dare we hope to see Boone and Shannon?) Time-travel nosebleeds for everybody! Oh, yeah, and: the beach abandoned, and what’s this? Signs of yet another plane crash?

Back in L.A., meanwhile, the major shock was that there wasn’t one: that is, to borrow a phrase from Lost Discussion Group, for once the Reverse Occam’s Razor rule of Lost did not apply. The simplest explanation actually was true, and it really was Ben who sent the lawyer after Aaron. And Sun really is, apparently, out to pop a cap into Ben. (Hasn’t she reached the level where she can hire people to do the job for her, like her dad would have?) One open question—so who did send the goons after Sayid? (Who, incidentally, should get to fight with his bare hands in every episode.) Was there an obvious answer I’m just missing? Is it—by Reverse Reverse Occam’s Razor—also Ben? 

But what I’ll be puzzling over most in this episode is the Island, and all those damn boats. The (octagonal, a la Dharma/Buddhist) boat of the French crew, who pick up Jin: if he’s separated in the past with them, what possibly becomes of him? (Incidentally, very glad we’re getting more of their backstory, which I’d doubted we’d ever see.)

And those long boats on shore at the abandoned camp. This is interesting, since it suggests another, yet unknown, group reaching the Island at a point when the camp existed. (Perhaps in the “future”—that is, at a point after the escape of the Oceanic Six?) Who are these people, why are they shooting, and what is their connection to Ajira Airways? Those of you who delved into the Ajira website, which appeared before the start of season 5, are welcome to weigh in here, because I’ve got nothin’.  

On to the hail of bullets: 

* In earlier discussions, some of you said you’d be disappointed if it turned out Miles was the Dharma baby, because there’s a little too much everyone’s-related-to-everyone going on here. Do you still feel that way?

* So if Jin was picked up by Rousseau and Co., and Locke’s group has come upon their wreckage, does that mean that Jin—floating about in wreckage on the water—has been bouncing around in time in tandem with them, all this time? Will he get picked up by the Locke group on the way to the Orchid? Will Locke and company do something (at the Orchid, perhaps) that precipitates the “sickness” that claims the rest of Rousseau’s group?

* For that matter, what was the sickness? From what I recall, it involved people somehow going “mad,” which sounds more like Desmond’s unsticking-in-time (and, maybe, whatever Faraday has or once had) than Island Nosebleed Syndrome.

* Miles and Sawyer are now neck and neck in the snarky/sarcastic remark sweeepstakes. 

* I don’t have a season one set of DVDs handy, so can anyone tell me: were we seeing the original Claire birth scene from “Do No Harm,” or did it look as if the scene were re-created for this episode? 

* “42 Panorama Crest”? Wouldn’t the Oceanic 6 ask their real estate agents to avoid addresses involving the Numbers?

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  • natego

    So looks like I was right after all about the topic of the episode (french crew).

    It seems pretty clear to me Ben is playing EVERYBODY. He is the master manipulator. He is after Sayid to make sure he was coralled, he was after Kate’s baby to draw her into the group to back to the island, he manipulated Jack into convincing Kate to come with the backdrop of the fear over Aaron.

    Also, I’m not sure I understand the frustration over Miles probably being Chang’s baby.. The whole reason Miles was chosen was because he had already been on the island before. I’m sure we’ll find out it wasn’t just coincidence later and there was a reason he was specifically included in the freighter group.

  • toba0821

    The child actor that plays Aaron is horrible!! I don’t buy the relationship between Kate and Aaron at all. It’s so forced. Kate was never a kid person and now the writers act like if she talks about how much she loves Aaron a lot, we’ll all magically believe it.

    And I totally agree about the Oceanic Six, they’re just not as interesting as the people on the island. I guess it’s because there are still so many mysteries surrounding Farraday, Charlotte and Miles. Speaking of Charlotte, I was convinced she was going to die.

    I’m horrible at determining these things but I think it’s possible that Jin somehow made it to shore and was affected by the time flashes just like the others. Though it is weird that all the other survivors have just disappeared..

  • mabs3

    Is it possible that Charlotte is the baby we saw with Marvin Candle? The baby in the season premiere had pretty light-colored hair, and it would make sense that Marvin Candle and his wife would have to adopt/take a baby that is not theirs because of whatever it is about the island that prevents women from carrying pregnancies to term.

    Also, if “temporal displacement” occurs in proportion to one’s amount of time on the island, and if Charlotte was actually a baby on the island, she has been exposed the longest, and then Miles for whatever reason, then Juliet ? Having Miles be the son of Marvin Candle just seems to be too obvious….

  • mabs3

    OH! and if Marvin Candle is Korean, it would explain why Charlotte speaks Korean …
    I can’t believe I forgot about mentioning that…

  • jcrhoo

    Charlotte’s faculty with the Korean language is intriguing, but Baby Candle doesn’t look her at all:

    http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1455-5.html

    Keep in mind that what we diehards consider “obvious” isn’t obvious to the majority of viewers, even in this penultimate season. I mean, they had to make Rousseau introduce herself with her full name to bang home the point.

    I like the idea of Jin, floating on a shard of freighter wreckage inside the bubble radius, bouncing through time while unconscious. He should have experienced all the same flashes that “moved” Sawyer, Locke, et al.

  • http://www.rentvine.com drumat5280

    “were we seeing the original Claire birth scene” – I too would like to know. When I was watching that scene I thought to myself did that have the foresight to shoot that from a different angle way back then? If they did, I give the writers two big thumbs up for doing so. This show keeps amazing me more and more.

  • doba0821

    I watched the original birth scene in “Do No Harm.” I think it’s the same footage. But considering that Charlie and Jin were also watching the birth, I’m not exactly sure if the angles were foresight, or just convenient coincidence. And if Rousseau truly was French, why did the actress that played her at a mature age, Mira Furlan, not sound French at all? And I wonder if Sawyer et. al. will ever confront their past (or future) selves on the island.

  • http://www.simonvinkenoog.nl/beeld/Yogi%20-%20Annelies%20Rigter.jpg yogi

    “Miles—probably Marvin Candle’s baby! (Right? What else could the nosebleed have implied?)”
    -
    I’m confused here, why does this mean Miles is Candle’s baby? I took it as the nosebleeds that Charlotte and now Miles and at the end Juliet had was because they don’t have a constant. Remember from last season, we found out that Desmond is Faraday’s constant, which he met in the first episode (or was it the second) to constantize himself. I’m guessing that Locke’s is either the island or Richard Alpert and Sawyer’s is Kate whom he saw during this episode.

  • http://www.simonvinkenoog.nl/beeld/Yogi%20-%20Annelies%20Rigter.jpg yogi

    “Miles—probably Marvin Candle’s baby! (Right? What else could the nosebleed have implied?)”
    -
    I’m confused here, why does this mean Miles is Candle’s baby? I took it as the nosebleeds that Charlotte and now Miles and at the end Juliet had was because they don’t have a constant. Remember from last season, we found out that Desmond is Faraday’s constant, which he met in the first episode (or was it the second) to constantize himself. I’m guessing that Locke’s is either the island or Richard Alpert and Sawyer’s is Kate whom he saw during this episode.

  • Ashman

    So I guess Jin was thrown by the explosion into the blast radius?
    .
    The helicopter wasn’t grabbed when the island moved and it seems like it would have been closer to the island then tossed off freighter Jin.
    .
    My first thought was Jin wondered into the island’s perimeter after the island started to move or something and is flopping around in a different time stream then Sawyer, Locke and co. I’ll have to watch again and see if there is evidence that supports or contradicts that idea.
    .
    When Sun was left alone with the kid I screamed “SPOOKY NINJA!” and everyone in my house looked at me funny.
    .
    Kind of disappointed in the Charlotte recovering so quickly to hiking form. That felt a little cheap to me. Lost should be better then a “this character is totally dead, psyche!” sort of play at this level.
    .
    I feel like all the action is on island. I “know” that at some point they are all going to get back to the island, and I’m just not that interested in watching Ben do his manipulations to get them there. Hoping for a Desmond run in or something to make the off island stuff more engaging.

  • http://kristin.eonline.com/ jengod

    90% sure that was all original footage from the season one ep, intercut with season-five Sawyer.

  • chriskw

    @ Jengod and James

    The scene of Claire giving birth was brand new footage. I know for a fact that Charlie was also there. And I am pretty sure Jin was there as well. Plus, although Kate hasn’t aged as much as Walt, watching reruns of Season 1 anyone would notice that she does look a little different(some of that has to do with an improvement in Lilly acting ability).

    Overall, I disliked that scene because it suggested that the crash survivors could travel to a time where they were already present on the island. So the same soul and/or mind exists twice at the same moment. That means there is a possibility of running into their past or future selves. It makes sense that they could travel to a time where they existed off island because The Island is a special/separate entity.

    For a show that has strict rules about time-travel that’s something that the producers shouldn’t even flirt with. Then again, I have enough patience to wait and see how it is explained.

  • tenderfeet

    The long boats were the most interesting part of the episode for me since they seemed to indicate that the time-jumpers can move to the future as well as the past. I’m curious what timeline they’re on though; did they jump to a point in the island’s future independent of them time-hopping all over the place, or did the events that brought the boats there depend on their time-jumping activities?
    .
    On a side note, did it bother anyone else that their long boat/canoe conveniently time-jumped with them? Did I miss a Faraday explanation that would cover this?

  • Tom Shaw

    Ugh, the Season 4 real world filler continues. Let’s see how few sentences I can sum up the episode in:

    Miles is indeed Candle’s kid; he left the Island before he was three years old.
    Charlotte was well older than that when she left.
    Ben was indeed behind the Aaron lawyer scare.
    Jin is alive, and in the time period where Rousseau’s team landed.
    Someone will get to The Island in the future, after flying Ajira airlines.

    Let’s hope they leave the real world soon, only Ben & Sayid’s time there has been worth anything.

    And in regards to Miles’ parentage: I was against it at first; this all is getting a bit incestuous, that every major moment in The Island’s history is caused by the same batch of 23 people. (Even more so if Widmore is also Daniel’s dad.) But it could just be that with Mader’s departure/reduced time, they needed someone to be born there of the current cast, to hammer home that the baby pox hasn’t always been around.

  • James Poniewozik

    Re: the long boats… let me throw out another thought to chew on that just occurred to me.
    .
    They are long boats.
    .
    What I mean is, they are not emergency inflatable rafts, of the sort that someone might float on after a plane crash. They are not–I think, unless someone was very handy–hand-hewn canoes someone might have carved or lashed together on an island. And I don’t think (not that I’m a maritime expert) that they are lifeboats from a ship that sank. They appear to be well-crafted boats that would have been built in civilization. And yet someone on the was drinking out of an airline water bottle.
    .
    In other words, the kind of boats that someone might have taken if they *intended* to row somewhere. Not if they washed up by accident. On the other hand–again, I say this as a boating layman–they don’t seem like boats you’d take on a long-haul trip.
    .
    All of which is to say: what does the *kind* of boats tells us about the nature of the people who brought them to the Island? And does it tell us anything about where the Island is (if we think that it is moving in space as well as time)?

  • beerbaron

    I’m almost positive that was old footage. Charlie and Jin were there, but off to the side (at one point when Claire was screaming, Charlie started to go to her but Jin shook his head and stopped him).
    .
    The water bottle completely ruins this, but my first thought was that the long boats were from the Black Rock ship. Wouldn’t an old sailboat carry a couple smaller crafts? And no one actually rowed to the island, the longboats were with the ship when the island “appeared” underneath it.

  • chriskw

    @tenderfeet

    In the season premiere Faraday (or maybe Juliet) mentioned that whatever is with them when they time jump goes with them. It’s a convenient “rule” but one that the producers had to make in order to avoid everyone time traveling in the nude (see: Terminator).

    @Tom Shaw

    Incestuous? Do you mean incredulous? I think Boone and Shannon will be the only (and one more than was necessary) case of incest we will get on this show.

  • chriskw

    @Beerbaron

    Ah, that’s right. Charlie and Jin did go off to the side. I forgot about that. But still, there was something about the scene that made it seem new. I wonder if Emilie de Ravin gets paid if they use archival footage.

  • antilles13

    @James- I think I have to disagree to some extent about the benefits of the end-date. I agree, they desparately needed an end date, I just wish it had been a bit further out. Where I disagree with you is that I much preferred character-centric episodes. Having every episode’s “flashs” focus on pretty much all of the characters takes away some of the character-driven aspects of the story to me, because a lot of the character development is taken away. We’ve learned about their characters in the past, but I’d like some “future” character development as well. Everything this season seems hurried (and to some extent, last season as well). The O6 would be much more interesting to me if we just has one episode on each character (or maybe two characters), focusing on how they got to that meeting on the pier – why they had to get back – just like how a lot of the flashbacks focused on why the characters were on the plane. (For example, we keep hearing about Locke’s meetings with them off-island, but why do we never see those meetings?) If there was an over-arching “power” that got everyone on that same plane, wouldn’t that power still be in effect to get the O6 back? The meeting at the pier could have served the same purpose as everyone getting to the airport in Sydney before. Everything about the O6 just seems hurried and “too convenient”, if that makes sense. I feel there has been a bit of a creative cop-out this season, just to focus so much on the time-travel plot.
    -
    Re: the long boats. Those looked to me like the same type of boat Kate and Sawyer used to get off the Hydra Isalnd.
    -
    I know Kate takes a lot hits from this group, but I found her scene with Jack on the Searcher to be one of the more touching scenes in awhile that didn’t involve Desmond and Penny.

  • shara says

    Wow. So, it looks like Sun is not actually a spooky ninja, which definitely makes me a little more bored with her storyline thus far – but JIN IS ALIVE!!!!! I had been pretty sure that Jin is alive, and that he would be drifting toward the island, because I had rewatched the episode where the doctor from the freighter got his throat slit and washed up on their beach. That indicated that there was a current (or whatever) flowing from the freighter to the island, which Jin would naturally have been be caught up in. And it looks like Ben does know this, and that that is how he is gonna get Sun on board with the plan, which I definitely like.
    .
    Is anyone else getting a very Wolfram & Hart vibe from this lawyer dude? Also, were they saying that they were going to get Hurley released pretty easily? That was a nice switcharoo with Claire’s mom – when she showed up, my mind was blown because I had been so sure it was Ben. But then, ha ha, neat trick, it was Ben all along.
    .
    So it seems pretty definite that Myles was on the island as a baby, and that Pierre is his dad. Interesting development, I’m assuming that Myles was around for the Incident and that’s what triggered his weird psychic abilities. Could he be experiencing a sort of “unstuckness” himself? Like, instead of talking to dead people or just “being psychic”, is it that he can unstick his consciousness in time at will because of this exposure to whatever happened during the Incident?
    .
    So, how come the gun Juliet took from the soldiers, the compass Locke took from Richard, the longboat they were riding in, and the bullet in Locke’s leg all went with them when everything else flashed away? Is it that they can take whatever they have contact with at the moment of the flash with them? If so, what if Locke had grabbed hold of Ethan when he jumped – would Ethan have been pulled along too?
    .
    @chriskw: I loved the scene where Sawyer saw Kate and Claire. It was so well-played. I don’t think that its really a time travel paradox to have Sawyer on the island at the same time that Past Sawyer is on the island any more than it is a paradox to have them on the island with Past Versions of people they will later meet. I see it as much more of a 12 Monkeys vision of time travel than a Back to the Future vision of time travel, which fits in with the “rules of the universe don’t allow changes” that we’ve been hearing so far.

  • Matt

    @antilles – I have a hunch that later on in the season, we’ll have an episode devoted to “Bentham”, a la Meet Kevin Johnston or the Other 48 Days.
    .
    @James, et al re: longboats. Just because there’s a water bottle on the boat, doesn’t mean the people who built the boats were the ones who came on Ajira.
    .
    @tenderfeet – yes, I was fully expecting/hoping that after the flash on the longboat, they’d wind up in the water. Oh well.
    .
    It may just be me, but all the Sawyer “slip-ups” about Kate are starting to get heavy-handed. “She’s gone… they’re gone.” “Don’t you want them to come back? Don’t you want *her* to come back?” It’s a bit much.
    .
    My roommates and I all cheered when the floating body was revealed to be Jin. Like, really, really loudly.
    .
    Is anyone else curious about Rose & Bernard? I hope they’re OK…

  • antilles13

    I saw this on Lostpedia, and it made me think of Ben’s refusal to answer Jack when Jack said, “He’s dead, isn’t he”: the name on the side of Ben’s van, “Canton Rainier” is an anagram of “reincarnation.”
    -
    @Matt- I would love to see a Bentham-centric episode, but it wouldn’t change the fact that, for me, the whole O6 thing seems a little forced.

  • shara says

    About the end date – Its definitely changed things. For one thing, the focus of the viewership seems to have shifted – I’ve heard several folks this season say things like “that scene just wasn’t important in the grand scheme” and “that scene didn’t add anything to what we already knew about x, y, and z.” So, rather than enjoying episodes and scenes as we did in the past (character-based storylines with small, gradual reveals of information), everything is now apparantly supposed to directly play into the endgame, or whatever. On the show end, there’s a lot more action and less focus on characters – the glass half full approach says that we’ve already gotten to know these characters and their history and motivations and interconnections, so now its time to get busy with the action, the answers, and the endgame. The glass is half empty approach says that the character development (which could certainly have been elaborated with many of the O6, particularly Kate and Sun) may be being rushed at the expense of the needs of the plot.
    .
    I do like having the end in sight. I’m definitely of the opinion that the end-time is a good thing, because I have been seriously worried about the potential for X-Files-itis with this show, and this is assurance that it won’t happen. I don’t know what the endgame is, but I’ll trust that the writers know what’s coming, and what its going to take to get there. I don’t really mind having the focus on the plot and action, but there was something really magical about the slow pace of the earlier seasons where we were getting to know the characters and the island so gradually that each episode was a work of art in character study.

  • shara says

    @doba0821: “And if Rousseau truly was French, why did the actress that played her at a mature age, Mira Furlan, not sound French at all?”
    .
    She sounded plenty French to me – she wasn’t around a lot, but I do remember her having a pretty strong accent.

  • natego

    @chris.. Emilie should get paid for being on-screen.. if a commercial with a piece of music is played more than once, the composer will get royalties everytime the commercial is played on TV, so I’m sure the same is true for actors..

    Re; Long boats.. these initially reminded me of Alex and Carl rowing from the smaller island.. I think it belongs to the Others. AND How do we know this was in the future??? The Ajira bottle could have been from the other “incident” which could have been an earlier plane crash before Oceanic.

  • shara says

    @natego – I may be totally remembering wrong, but I thought that they knew it was the future because the ruins of their camp were there – the empty beer bottles, Vincent’s leash, the falling-down structures, etc. But that may have been a different flash that I’m thinking of?

  • natego

    @shara.. ahhhhh yes.. that does sound familiar.. <—– Bad short term memory..

  • antilles13

    @shara – that might be the first time anyone has ever referred to me as a “glass half empty” kind of guy. :) I think my point really goes more to the fundamentals of the show. Back in S1&2, and maybe to a lesser extent 3&4 as well, each individual episode seems to have a separate “theme,” which revolved around one specific character. Maybe it’s not the loss of the “one specific character” I’m having trouble with, but with the loss of the individual “themes,” which to me was always the soul of the show. At the moment, each episode just runs together; the episodes have lost a little focus at the expense of simply moving the story more quickly. I’m all for having that end-date, but it just feels like they’re rushing to get there.

  • Chaddogg

    Great episode. I’m gonna be contrarian and say I still enjoy the Oceanic 6 storyline (I mean, who ARE the goons that keep trying to tranquilize Sayid? And why haven’t they realized it will never work because Sayid is a bad motha%*&#er? Which, come to think of it, raises another long gestating question — why wasn’t Sayid named leader of the Losties over Jack?)
    .
    I’m also gonna agree with someone above — I was genuinely touched by Kate and Jack’s scene on the boat, and also Kate’s attachment to Aaron. I bought it — consider me a sucker if you will, but, as someone here (or Doc Jensen) noted, seeing her deliver Aaron and her “this baby is all of us” speech, in addition to her shock over losing everyone on the island (not dead, but gone) made me understand why Kate FINALLY had an anchor in Aaron that would moor her to life, so that she couldn’t run away anymore.
    .
    This episode also played into one of my favorite games/theories: who will Kate choose — Jack or Sawyer? And its attendant meta-theory that Cuse and Lindelof are replaying the Leia-Han-Luke relationship without the Lucas “easy-out” of making Luke and Leia siblings. I mean, Kate is clearly Leia (although Cuse and Lindelof cleverly made her a convict-type, rather than a princess type, to make the fact that she could choose Sawyer/Han more possible), Sawyer is a dead-ringer for Han (smuggler/con-man, sarcastic quips/sarcastic quips, nicknames/nicknames), and Jack is Luke (need to save everyone — including a corrupted father; seduced by the dark side/tricked into alligning himself with Ben?)
    .
    All of which brings me to the poignance of Sawyer seeing Kate delivering Aaron, his emotional reaction to it, and a new (or revised) theory — we’re heading for a Tale of Two Cities ending for either Jack or Sawyer in terms of Kate. One will sacrifice himself so that she can live happily with the other. And I’m actually betting that its Jack who does it, and (here’s the twist) he stays behind with Juliet on the island to become “Adam and Eve” with the black and white rocks, which end up being some type of sign to future Kate/Sawyer of something significant.
    .
    A couple other thoughts:
    .
    The van: Rainer-Canton, an anagram for “reincarnation.” A wink at the popular purgatory theory of the island, or a clue that Locke is waking up from the dead?
    .
    I’m confused on the nosebleeds. Are we saying more time on the island equals greater chance/the sooner you get a nosebleed? So Charlotte has actually spent the most time on the island, followed by Miles, then Juliet? Or is this a constant thing as someone theorized, wherein Sawyer (by seeing Kate) and Locke (by seeing Richard?) and Faraday (by seeing gas-masked Desmond) have constantized (great word, whoever came up with it) themselves, making them nosebleed immune?
    .
    Wow – Danielle Rousseau AND Jin? This is going to get interesting. Have we seen them interact before? I’m pretty sure we have, and now I’m wracking my brain to figure out how it went down…I seem to (wishfully?) recall some weirdness when she met Jin…

  • shara says

    @antilles13: I wasn’t meaning to necessarily associate the glass-half-empty and full with any particular person, just pointing out the two ways that I’m personally torn on viewing this. I agree with everything you just said about how the themes seem to be shortchanged of late. I’m just torn on the extent that it bothers me ;)

  • Matt

    @Chad – I think Farraday’s explanation of the nosebleeds isn’t that you’ve spent the *most time* on the island, but rather an “order of arrival” thing. if that’s true, then charlotte and miles were on the island before juliet showed up (probably before the purge), who was (obviously) on the island before sawyer & locke. This also implies that Farraday had never been on the Island before arriving in Season4.

  • Chaddogg

    @Matt — but isn’t that “order of arrival” thing broken since we know Faraday was (in some sense) on the island in the Dharma days from episode 1 this season? Or was that just present day Faraday jumping back to the 70s era Dharma?

  • Matt

    @Chad – I always figured it was present-Faraday in the past, based on a) the ComicCon video and b) the look on his face. He clearly knew what was up – I don’t think he was Daniel Workman who got blasted to the future.

  • tenderfeet

    @Chaddogg and Matt – Doesn’t Faraday have a constant in Desmond, preventing nosebleed-itis?

  • Matt

    @tenderfeet – That’s not a scenario I’m ruling out. I was just going off of what Faraday said.
    .
    My personal preference is not that the Time-Skippers (do we have a term for them, I don’t remember) need constants, but that The Island does: the Oceanic 6. What seems to be implied is that once the O6 get back, time will stop bouncing around – as opposed to the bouncing around not being fatal.
    .
    Of course, this may be the “meta” reason, but not the technical reason. Still, it’s romantic on some level, no?

  • sunnysbud

    @Chaddogg: Jin seemed to know who she was… his expression was very “WTF?!?”
    -
    And in the “screw occam’s razor” department, do we know that Sun’s not actually going after Jack too? He was also in those photos she had. I just can’t get past her thinly veiled nastiness during her initial conversation with Kate. Sun’s tone when she asked her “How’s Jack?” Interesting how she’s now turned into exactly what Jin was before the plane crashed.

  • Chaddogg

    @tenderfeet — that’s what I think. I think Faraday has it wrong and you need a constant from somewhere/somewhen OFF the island to avoid nosebleeds.
    .
    Faraday has Desmond (who he met off the island, and is currently off the island, and who he saw in the time period that they’ve been jumping).
    .
    Locke has Alpert (who he met as a child off the island, and who he has seen in the time period that they’ve been jumping).
    .
    Sawyer has Kate (who is currently off the island and he’s seen in the time period that they’ve been jumping).
    .
    The breakdown is in the “met off island v. currently off island” idea. I think the “currently off island” is more important, because Juliet met Alpert, right, in Jughead? (Actually, now I’m not so sure she DID…) And didn’t she meet Alpert off island initially in her recruitment to the Others?
    .
    I’m confused…

  • Chaddogg

    @sunnysbud — my question isn’t whether Jin recognized young Rousseau in this episode….it’s whether OLDER Rousseau recognized Jin the first time she saw him in a PAST episode. For some reason I recall Jin reacting one morning when Rousseau came to camp (season 2?) that she was an Other….which means she’d see him….which means that since her YOUNGER self saw him the day they washed ashore, wouldn’t she remember him, particularly since he’s IDENTICAL (i.e. hadn’t aged)?

  • sunnysbud

    @Chaddogg: I think Juliet did meet Alpert in Jughead, and initally off-island. But she got a nosebleed last night too, so…?

  • Matt

    @Chad – If Rousseau did not recognize Jin, I think that means one of two things: either a) the writer’s didn’t plan that far ahead or b) contrary to Faraday & Hawking, the past CAN be changed…

  • Dave

    jcrhoo made a great point that we all need to keep in mind: “Keep in mind that what we diehards consider “obvious” isn’t obvious to the majority of viewers, even in this penultimate season. I mean, they had to make Rousseau introduce herself with her full name to bang home the point.”
    `
    My wife is a pretty smart girl, but she isn’t an obsessive, hardcore fan like most of the folks who post here are :) After Locke overturned the thing with French writing, I knew we’d be seeing Rousseau. After Rousseau and Jin started talking, I turned to my wife and said, “You know that’s Rousseau, right?” And she goes, “Oh yeah, that does make sense.”
    `
    I found this episode kind of underwhelming. It told us a lot, but it was mostly confirming what we suspected and already believed (Jin’s alive, we’d see Rousseau, Ben’s behind the lawyers – yes, my gut was wrong, I know, the O6 is getting together).
    `
    So did the on-Island folk just miss the O6 when they saw the Ajira water bottle and the canoe things?

  • sunnysbud

    @Chaddogg – OH! I see what you’re saying. Disregard my previous post.

  • antilles13

    @James: “* Miles and Sawyer are now neck and neck in the snarky/sarcastic remark sweeepstakes.” Sawyer seems to have lost some of his snarkiness mojo while he’s in his “pining for Kate” mode, and Miles has flown by him (“This plan sounded a hell of a lot better when we were going by motorboat.” Though I still love, “That chick (Juliet) is SO into me” from Because You Left.) I have a feeling Sawyer will pull himself together and slap the newbie down, though.
    -
    Per the Lostpedia transcript of “The Little Prince”, the first thing the Frenchies said was, “I told you so! We never should have followed those damn numbers!” Wonder if they have their own Hurley?

  • mrstunedin

    What if the O6 ultimately flew Ajira airlines to a nearby island, the took the long boats the rest of the way? What if the O6 were the shooters in the boat behind Sawyer, Juliet, et al (not realizing it was their pals up ahead)?

  • antilles13

    @Chaddog- about Jin & Rousseau. Seems like the same kind of problem Desmond should have had when first (or, I guess, secondly) seeing Desmond. Desmond woke up with a new ‘memory.’ I guess, if Rousseau were still alive, she’d just have a new ‘memory’ too. Maybe? One of those time-travel issues that just come with the territory I guess.

  • shara says

    @Chaddog & sunnysbud: about the constants – I think from how Daniel explained it to Desmond, the constant has to be someone (or someTHING) that they really care about – something that grounds them in both times. If Richard is Juliet’s constant, then wouldn’t their relationship have had to be a lot deeper than has been revealed? Or is what Daniel said flexible enough to apply? Hmmm. If they DO flash back to the Dharma Days, then both Charlotte and Miles could have a chance to run into their parents/family – I wonder, would THAT constantize them?
    .
    Daniel did mention that the constant could be a THING. Is that why he was trying to find landmarks when the flashes first started? Or was that just an effort to pinpoint their location in time?

  • Dave

    I’m trying to get as much reading/posting in as I can, but today’s kind of busy for me. One thing I’ll quick throw out there…
    `
    @Chad – “I think Faraday has it wrong and you need a constant from somewhere/somewhen OFF the island to avoid nosebleeds.” I’m wary to call Daniel wrong about something Island-wise. What he proposes makes sense – Nosebleeds are correlated to the amount of time spent on the Island. Like Tom said, Charlotte was born there and left at some point in life. Miles was born there and left after he turned 3 but before he was as old as Charlotte. Juliet was there 3 years. We saw Dan in Dharma times, but is that Dan before or after the Dan we’re seeing jumping? I say after.
    `
    Now at least we know how Ben knows Jin is alive.

  • Chaddogg

    Something isn’t adding up for me about Juliet right now, either. Can’t put my finger on it, but she seems “too” composed, “too” interested in Sawyer’s feelings for Kate, and “too” equipped with readily available information (i.e. Ajira is an airline based in India that flies all over the world?).
    .
    Is there more to Juliet than the fertility doctor that failed who wants to go back home to see her sister and her niece? And doesn’t this time travel have an interesting angle to it for Juliet’s sake — namely that she could “fast forward” her own research by giving it a time-shift in knowledge? Or warn her lover Goodwin that Ana Lucia would kill him?
    .
    Crazy theory, I realize. But something is going on with her character.
    .
    Also — do we now think (given Sawyer in the woods watching the birth of Aaron) that the “whispers” are actually time-shifting/jumping Losties? They always seem to show up at important historical times (such as Shannon getting shot; although I don’t recall whispers during Aaron’s birth…then again, Sawyer said nothing)…so could we be learning their origin soon?

  • Chaddogg

    @Dave — how do we know how Ben knows Jin is alive? I’m missing something here…unless it’s that the Hostiles/Others observed the arrival of the French boat WITH Jin in it, and this information was relayed to Ben somehow?

  • jcrhoo

    I don’t believe Juliet interacted with Alpert in the 1954 scene. She saw him from the hillside, then went off with Sawyer, sneaking around to ambush Ellie at the bomb. The flash came, IIRC, before they had a chance to march Ellie back to Alpert, Widmore and the center of camp.
    -
    @antilles — My favorite part of the episode might have been the Frenchie who was standing on the beach with a walkie-talkie, pulling in the radio broadcast of the numbers
    -
    And yeah, I too wonder if 40-year-old Rousseau recognized Jin in Season 2. She must have. What direction would they have given Mira Furlan, since the actors are on a need-to-know basis regarding the long-term plot — “Act like you think you know him from somewhere”?

  • Dave

    Where we left off, the Losties saw the French wreckage, then went up into the woods to hide. The French folks come down with Jin, and the Losties see that Jin is alive. X happens, Locke gets off the Island, and Bentham talks to most or all of the O6, Walt, and Ben. Bentham tells Ben that Jin is alive, but he apparently either didn’t tell Sun or didn’t talk to Sun (quite possibly the second option).
    `
    I think we’re all making this too complex. The Little Prince helped show us that Occam’s Razor really does apply to Lost, even if there are parts that are not the simplest explanation.

  • jcrhoo

    @antilles — Don’t compare anyone to Desmond regarding time travel. It’s not applicable, from what Faraday and (I believe) the producers have said.

  • Dave

    Addition to my last comment: I’m only assuming that the Losties add Jin to their merry crew, because once they flash and the French folks are gone, Jin’s going to be really confused.

  • shara says

    @Chaddog – SPOILER ALERT I GUESS: “how do we know how Ben knows Jin is alive?” The previews for next week say so.

  • Chaddogg

    @shara says — nice, but I thought the “never trust Ben Linus” corollary applied: Just because Ben says something is true doesn’t MEAN it is true? Although, in this case, we know independently that it is true…so I suppose you’re right.

  • http://www.simonvinkenoog.nl/beeld/Yogi%20-%20Annelies%20Rigter.jpg yogi

    @Shara, Chaddogg, Sunnybud: I don’t think Juliet ever saw Richard in Jughead, well in person, maybe from far off, so not sure if he’s her constant. I also don’t think it requires knowing someone from off island, because Sawyer didn’t meet Kate until on island, but he was able to constantize himself because he realized what time period he was at along with Locke.

  • shara says

    @chaddog: Its not that nothing that Ben says is true – just that nothing he says should be taken at face value. Just because he tells her something true (that Jin is alive), it doesn’t mean that he’s giving her the whole story about why he wants Sun to go back, what role the O6 are supposed to play, etc. He’s got his endgame, and he’s manipulating the chess pieces to suit whatever (evil, selfish, heroic, predestined) goal he’s trying to accomplish. I think it still fits!

  • sunnysbud

    @yogi, shara – I think that may be the point. It doesn’t matter if they met the constant off-island, but they have to currently (whatever the hell that means) BE off island to be effective constants. So Richard is not an effective constant for Juliet, hence her nosebleed.

  • Matt

    @Dave – In No Place Like Home (or was it Because You Left?), Ben says that he never spoke to Bentam/Locke. Granted, this is coming right after a mini-discussion on Shara’s Ben rule, but there it is.

  • sunnysbud

    .. the constant has to be off-island, I mean.

  • silvanus87

    If nosebleeds and the Lostflu are a direct correlation to how long one has spent on the island, what’s the explanation for Minkowski? Is it possible that everyone who was part of Widmore’s crew was originally from the island?

  • Chaddogg

    @sunnysbud: then where is Locke’s constant? He’s only seen Ethan and Alpert….unless Widmore is his constant? Which would be weird, since the first (and so far only) time they’ve met was in the 1950s….

  • http://www.simonvinkenoog.nl/beeld/Yogi%20-%20Annelies%20Rigter.jpg yogi

    @Chaddogg, well Locke did meet Alpert when he was 6, he just didn’t remember it.

  • mutchtastic

    I know it doesn’t really fit in with the rules of time travel as set up thus far, but wouldn’t it be kind of cool if the Jin that was picked up by Danielle’s raft is actually “past” Jin right after Walt was taken and Michael’s raft was blown up. I don’t suppose anyone noticed Jin wearing handcuffs in this episode.

  • Matt

    @silvanus – the Minkowski’s and even Desmond’s sickness appear to be different from what’s going on now. Charlotte quickly remembered who Daniel was, while Des had no idea who Sayid was until he talked to Penny. It’s close, but no cigar.

  • Chaddogg

    @yogi — but MEETING someone off island isn’t the same thing as them currently BEING off-island. When the jumps began, Alpert was VERY MUCH on the island. In fact, he was with Locke prior to the first jump (at which point Alpert disappeared)

  • Tom Shaw

    The Jin situation isn’t that complex guys – we know Ben’s people will get ahold of Alex soon; they simply question the Frenchies and find out about Jin. Ben stores that information for later. (Although it could be argued that Ben is lying: He knows that Jin survived the freighter explosion, not necessarily that he is still alive.)
    -
    Jin knows Rousseau from the time spent in camp together (and definitely from the TNT demonstration).
    If Rousseau recognized Jin, I don’t recall it; though it would hardly be the first time the showrunners abused an unreliable narrator (she was (as far as we know) alone and crazy in the jungle for a decade+) for their own purposes (Daniel’s memory loss with Desmond, Jack’s drug use for a three years dead dad).

  • Matt

    OOOOhhh, mind-bending thought:
    .
    If the island (or people) skips to a time that someone is off-island like Richard visiting baby-Locke, where would “past Richard” be?
    .
    I have a feeling this’ll never happen, but it’s a fun academic exercise. Localized time travel is crazy that way.

  • Dave

    I think the most clear point of Ben lying in season 5 is when he asked Jack what Bentham told him, and when Jack didn’t give any details, Ben said, “Well then I guess we’ll never know.” That raised my Ben’s BS-o-meter alarms real fast, and now it looks like Bentham either talked a lot to Ben or told Ben a lot when he did talk to him.
    `
    I don’t entirely buy into the need for everyone to have a constant. Like Matt said, Minkowski’s and Desmond’s Constant Pox behaved differently than what the Losties are experiencing now. It’s almost like the real Constant Pox is what Theresa is lying in bed with near Oxford, while the only reason Minkowski and Desmond got the nosebleeds and died is because they interacted with the Island.

  • Dave

    @Matt – the scenario you describe doesn’t matter. The jumping Losties are independent of their other selves, no matter to when they jump. The people already on the Island (in all the different time periods) are independent of the jumping Losties, even if they interact with them. If the Island shifted to a time when Richard wasn’t there, then the jumping Losties just wouldn’t see Richard in that jump.

  • Dave

    So if our bodies have an internal clock, the Jumping Losties would theoretically still be screwed up until they jumped to the right time. So do the Jumping Losties need to jump for 3+ years until they match up at the right time with the O6 coming back? Or do they just need to get close and have the O6 come back? Because for all we’ve seen, it’s only been a few days since FDW for the JL, while the O6 is going back years later.

  • natego

    @mutchtastic – The french crew shipwrecked there 16 years ago. How would survivor Jin have met them when they crashed.. that theory pretty much makes no sense.

    Re: whispers.. don’t think they are the Losties.. Whispers just before freighter explodes with Michael seeing Christian leads us to believe it has something to do with Jacob, not the crash survivors.

    BTW, I’m very interested in the reintroduction of Rousseau.. perhaps we will see how Ben came to get Alex.. perhaps we will even see it was done in Alex’s best interests based on the craziness of Rousseau.. This could add more depth to Ben’s character and much more perspective on his love for Alex.

  • Dave

    From Alan Sepinwall’s blog post about this episode: “So, should we assume that Bernard and Rose have taken Vincent for a long walk? And will they come across Cindy and the kids in their travels?”
    `
    We all know that Vincent’s empty leash is merely his move to become the true master of the Island.

  • theboarpig

    I “knew” from the season 5 previews that Kate was being manipulated by Ben. Who else would be so cruel as to take Aaron away?
    Here are some of my other hunches:
    * Miles is Marvin Candle’s son
    * Ellie is Mrs. Hawking
    * Faraday is Ellie’s son
    * Charles Widmore was on the island with Ellie. Dan Faraday is their child together.
    * Penny and Faraday are 1/2 siblings
    * Charlotte will be related to one of the Others too, just haven’t figured out who

  • jcb10

    @james — You think Sun wants to put a cap in Ben? I don’t think so. I think Sun wants to put a cap in JACK. Think of it, we had a flashback to the boat a couple weeks ago that reinforced that it was Jack that pulled Kate back in when she was going to retrieve Jin and Sun’s very icily asking “How’s Jack?” a couple weeks ago sealed it for me.

  • drabidea

    Is anyone else annoyed by Jin coming back to life? It is not even plausible, the producers need to have a very good excuse for all this to occur. First, How does he survive that explosion? That amount of C4 would have put a crater on earth the size of a football field. Second, lets say he lives through the explosion and somehow gets into the water. The explosion would have created a vacuum in the water that would have sucked him down in and he would have drown. Third, lets say he survives the explosion and the suction effect. If I remember correctly the helicopter after the explosion headed towards the island. They were not able to return fast enough to be engulfed in the “time travel bubble”. Are the writers saying the Jin can swim faster then a helicopter can fly??? Even with a HEAVY HEAVY current this is not feasible. A helicopter can fly well over 100 mph.

    I am very upset and will stop watching the show if they expect me to believe the obvious of him surviving everything and floating to the island.

  • natego

    Oh i see, but time-traveling is all cool, yeh? This is basically a SCI FI show.. the FI stands for Fiction.

  • dwhitcomb

    @drabidea – what you said would be similar to me saying “I’m going to stop watching Lost because time travel isn’t really possible.” As with all forms of entertainment (TV, Movies, books) it’s best to have a looser sense of the obvious.

  • drabidea

    @natego
    I am assuming you were commenting to me. Yes it is a SCI-FI show. The science part makes it plausible as we know it. The fiction part is the story behind it. Everything that has occured in the show seems to be acceptable with fringe science techniques. We know that time travel is possible we just dont know how to do it. There is no science behind Jin being alive.

  • Matt

    @drabidea – I think now that Lost is explicitly a Sci-Fi show, a suspension of disbelief is more than warranted. I learned long ago not to judge Lost by real-world expectations of “physics” or “common sense”. If that were the case, the Oceanic 815 survivors would not have survived at all.

  • profdante

    Enjoyed the episode last night, but aside from the questions already mentioned above, I also wondered how Locke knew the *exact* composition of the Oceanic 6 in the scene when he was telling Sawyer who had to come back (exact quote from Locke “Jack, Sun, Sayid, Hugo, Kate”). Given that all Alpert told Locke was that the people on the helicopter were ‘fine’, even if Sawyer had later told Locke who had been on the helicopter when he jumped, the natural assumption would have been that Sun and Aaron and Jin and Michael were ALL dead on the freighter — thus there was no reason to believe that Sun could come back. OR if he thought that Sun had to come back then Jin at the very least should have been mentioned as coming back too. Am I making sense?

  • profdante

    p.s. I *really* don’t want Miles to be Candle Jr. That just seems too……. perfect.

  • Dave

    @drabidea – It may sound like a cop-out explanation, but they’ve used it before: the Island isn’t done with Jin. He was standing on the deck, and could have been flung from the wreckage, towards the Island. In Because You Left, Daniel mutters that they must have been inside the radius. Apparently there’s a time-space sensitive bubble around the Island, and the center of this bubble is likely well below sea level. Heck, look at the amount of displaced water when the Island ‘moved’. There’s clearly more to it than we’ve been led to believe.
    `
    But like natego said, if you’ve stuck with the show through all the other implausibilities, but now suddenly this one stretch may cause you to stop watching, you should have stopped watching a long time ago.

  • drabidea

    @Matt @dwhitcomb

    Time travel is possible. Read Einstein’s theory of relativity. We travel in time everyday. Nearly everything that has occured in Lost as a plausible science behind it. The reason the show is so popular is because even though most bizarre occurances are weird and not “possible” outside of the island world. We know deep down that science has proved yeah we could do these things like time travel or use nano-bots to create a black “smoke”. There a scientific reasons that Rose could have her cancer cured.

    Now that the writers/producers have created this event (Jin coming back to life) that can not be explained by sciences known today. It creates this space between us and the characters. In order to restore this they will have to give a plausible scientific explanation of this. otherwise, I am not going to watch the show anymore, because it will have become non-sci/fi

  • shara says

    @drabidea: I think its more than plausible, especially in the context of the story.. For one thing, the part of the boat that exploded first was NOT the part of the boat that Jin was on, leaving him with a chance of jumping overboard. Second, the freighter didn’t go down right away – Sawyer and Juliet were watching the smoke clouds for awhile, so there wouldn’t have been an instant vaccuum sucking anyone under the water (and surely we’ve all seen Titantic – being in the water when the boat started sinking didn’t mean that they all would die) – and if Jin had a chance to get a bit away from the freighter before getting caught in the Time Jumping Bubble, he would have flashed immediately away from where the freighter was going down, eliminating the concerns about the vaccuum (everyone else has certainly been saved by flashing away from certain situations). Third, the “island” has a history of NOT letting folks die when they otherwise ought to have – like not letting Michael kill himself, because “the island wasn’t done with him”. Fourth, this show is all about suspension of disbelief, and what’s “plausible” in LostWorld is not the same as what’s plausible in RealWorld.

  • dwhitcomb

    I really liked this episode. I agree that now we have the character background we can have more action. We’ve moved to a “24″-type pace and I’m loving every minute.
    -
    I’m in the camp that likens the sickness that Charlotte, Miles, and Juliette are experiencing to the sickness that Daniel gave his girlfriend before he left for the states. I think there was dual purpose for showing her 1)to expound on Daniel’s character and 2) to show what could become of our time traveling buddies.
    -
    My guess is that Locke will turn the wheel and shut down the time travel cycle. However, it will involve one last jump for our other time travelers and they will end up in the Dharma era. Their sickness will stop because they’ve stopped flashing. That puts Daniel in the position to 1)create the video with Chang and 2)be where he was at the beginning of season 5′s first episode. It should also give us an opportunity to witness the incident. Although I bet they get to see the statue and witness the death of Rosseau’s crew before they can escape the cycle.
    -
    The Oceanic six will finally get their act together and travel to the island. The big problem will be that they are now in a completely different time than their friends. I imagine that’s why Daniel wants to turn the wheel again, to reunite them with the correct time line.
    -
    I see all that happening throughout the season and the finale closing with the whole gang back together and caught between Ben and Widmore’s final showdown for island supremacy. I see both of them dying in the end as a result of their war.
    -
    Finally, I think the true nature of the island will be revealed using some flashbacks that have been held back for the purpose of having a “The Prestige” or “The Usual Suspects” type surprise ending.

  • drabidea

    @Shara

    So how did he swim faster then a helicopter?

  • Dave

    @drabidea – you’re a Jack in a show that’s getting more and more Locke-like. You’re telling me that there’s a scientific explanation that would cause Locke to start walking after a plane crash? There’s a scientific explanation for Ben popping up in Tunesia? Don’t confuse good sci-fi with reality :)

  • Dave

    Jin didn’t die from getting flung from an exploding ship the same way Locke didn’t die falling 8 stories or any of the characters didn’t die in the plane crash (Jack especially… the plane crashes, and yet there he is, in one piece in the middle of a bamboo freaking forest with only a slash in his back???). It’s the same reason Widmore and Ben can’t – and thus don’t try to – kill each other.

  • drabidea

    @Shara

    The island does have a way of keeping people alive or not. However, the island did this by not letting a gun shoot a bullet. This has a plausible reason behind it (The firing pin could have broke, the gun powder was wet, etc etc). If the gun were to go off and put a bullet through his brain and he still lived, this is not a plausible idea. I understand the disbelief part, which is mostly due to fate. We have this common belief that fate is not allowed that we make our own. It seems that the Island makes these peoples fate. The island still governs on laws of physics though.

  • shara says

    @drabidea: Who says he would have to? The helicopter was in the air, not in the water. The most reasonable explanation was that whoever was living on-island at the time, or surviving in the water surrounding the island at the time, got sucked into the bubble, but the helicopter, being all removed from the ground and water, wasn’t. That’s a good enough explanation for me.

  • drabidea

    I can believe that Jin is alive. I can see how that would happen. I just don’t see how he could have gotten into the time travel bubble and not the helicopter?

  • drabidea

    @Shara
    It wasn’t because they were in air though. You could see the bubble was in front of them. The bubble did not surround them. They were not moving fast enough to get to the bubble area.

  • shara says

    @drabidea: I still don’t see what’s not plausible about Jin jumping overboard and not dying in the explosion. The explosion definitely started in a part of the boat that Jin wasn’t in. If he was subsequently thrown from the boat (or jumped), his being underwater could have protected him somewhat from the rest of the blast. And, if the water served as an appropriate link with the island, he could have been pulled into a different time when the boat wasn’t sinking and creating a vaccuum. I don’t consider that any more of a stretch than John Locke never dying no matter how many times he’s injured or shot or hurled from drastic heights.
    .
    Out-there thought, Jin could also be in a Claire-like limbo state. I may be remembering wrong, but I seem to remember that Claire survived being exploded – relatively unscathed, possibly because the island wanted/needed her to survive. There’s not a lot of technically-plausible reasons for that one either, but she was there, unconscious, for Sawyer to pull out of the rubble.

  • sunnysbud

    @profdante- you’re totally making sense. Good point. How does Locke know who was on the freighter and who was in the helicopter, period? They don’t know whether it ever landed on the freighter,landed and picked up people, or landed and left people. All they know is that the frieghter exploded.

  • drabidea

    @Dave

    People have been known to recover from paralysis. People have been known to survive 8 story falls. The Island has a way of enhancing the healing process. Speeding it up or slowing it down for others. This could be due to the high electro magnetic concentrations on the island which have been shown to help the healing process in some situations.

  • profdante

    Wow I can’t believe we’re getting derailed by whether or not Jin should be dead. My feeling is that I have come to like Jin as a character, and so therefore I am willing to accept that he survived the freighter explosion (somehow) and was close enough to the island (somehow) to get caught up in the time jumps. This show has too many other noteworthy mysteries to get bogged down in this one. As an analogy, I read explanations that the drowning of Charlie wasn’t realistic given the physics of water rushing into the underwater station (I don’t pretend to understand the details). It may not have been scientifically accurate, but it made for good drama.

  • jcb10

    As for why the ship (and Jin) was in the displaced area and the helicopter wasn’t, maybe it was a bubble originating from the (underground) Orchid station. Think of it this way, the radius of the bubble would seem wider at the plane of the Orchid (slightly below ground level) and those higher in the air might not be caught up in it as the bubble curves inward. Granted the helicopter wasn’t that high in the grand scheme of things, but it might have been high enough.

  • shara says

    @drabidea: Last thought on this Jin thing – yes, they saw the bubble and weren’t inside it – but that doesn’t necessarily mean that only stuff within that bubble got shifted. The bubble could just have been the visual manifestation of the major energy surge, but the energy could have extended beyond the bubble. I would happily buy an explanation that EITHER the island needed Jin to be alive so he lived, OR that because Jin was in the water (physical connection, therefore linked to the island and surrounding area), he was pulled along with the bubble, even though it didn’t necessarily visually encompass him.
    .
    I agree with profdante that I’m SOOO glad Jin is alive, he is one of the more interesting characters and I’m glad that he’s still around. I would have accepted a lot less plausibility to keep him around.

  • dwhitcomb

    Drabidea is using typical message board shock tactics…which usually aren’t a problem on this board and one of the reasons I enjoy the post Lost discussion so much.

  • Dave

    @jcb10 – Or the bubble was centered around whatever the FDW was turning, which could have been much, much deeper. Or the bubble is centered around the true center of the Island, which could kind of make sense, because technically, the Island would have to go all the way to the ocean floor. /shrug
    `
    @drabidea – I still say you’re grasping at straws. If you’re using the rational of there being a non-zero chance of someone surviving an 8-story fall onto their back, you have to use the same rational that there is a non-zero chance that someone would survive being thrown by an explosion into the water. This is a great example of the Jack v. Locke, Science v. Faith, Rational Explanations v. Island Voodoo debate in the Lost universe.

  • profdante

    quick question: Does Kate know that Jack is Aaron’s uncle? I assumed she did, but a friend is trying to convince me that Jack’s line “He’s my family too” (or whatever it was) could be interpreted as part of the Kate-Aaron household, and nothing about Claire.

  • shara says

    @profdante – I also assumed that Kate knew about the Jack-Claire connection, but I don’t recall it ever being explicitly stated.

  • natego

    It is explicitly stated by Claires mother at Jack’s funeral!!!

  • natego

    It is explicitly stated by Claires mother at Jack’s fathers funeral!!!

  • Matt

    @profdante, I can’t imagine it not happening “off-screen”…
    .
    Jack: Soo… That woman. She was Claire’s mom. [tears]
    Kate: Oh my God..
    Jack: I’m not done. Claire is my half-sister. [tears]
    Kate: So that means…
    Jack: Aaron is my [tears] nephew.

  • natego

    Sorry.. im a bit slow.. my belief is that its implied Kate knew when Jack said it, but yeh, im an idiot and realize it was never explicitly stated that KATE knew the connection..

  • Chaddogg

    @dwhitcomb — I REALLY like this theory (Locke spinning the donkey wheel, sending the island Losties to the Dharma era more or less permanently), for a couple of reasons.
    .
    First, it gives a reason for Faraday’s presence in the Dharma-era shot from episode 1 of this season.
    .
    Second, it would explain why Jack cannot “find” the island — its lost/stuck in the 1970s.
    .
    Third (and here’s where I get to theory), it might explain Faraday’s weird reaction to the crash of 815. Here’s how — with the Losties stuck in the 1970s, and Locke off to get the Oceanic 6 back to the island, someone is going to have to jump the island to a time when the Oceanic 6 can find it and return (presumably “Three Years Later” from when they left.) The person to do that? Faraday. He spins the Frozen Donkey Wheel (or knows through his science background how to do so in a controlled manner) to get them back to 2007 (or whenever). In the process, though, he’s sent to 1970s Tunisia, permanently banished to the past. This somehow (I haven’t worked out why) creates a disconnect in his mind causing him to go somewhat mad (think akin to the disconnect in Desmond’s mind where he forgot about his island future once his past self got Penny to agree to answer the phone when he called in the future). Since you can’t have two Daniels running around in time, he skips forward to some future time in his consciousness. He continues his time experiments, drives his girlfriend crazy, gets committed. Then he sees the video of 815….causing him to inexplicably cry. Why?
    .
    Because he (subconsciously) knows what will come — him being stuck in a loop of time, destined to live forever in the same pattern.

  • shara says

    @Chaddog – wow. I always look forward to hearing your theories, dude. I’m following you up until he gets the disconnect in his mind and skips forward. . . I do think that the scene where he is crying and doesn’t know why is really important, and it does seem to indicate some consciousness-flashing around.

  • Matt

    @chad, shara -
    .
    Oh man… what if the Daniel we see in the crying flashback is actually “past Daniel” – before all the island shenanigans – but “future” Daniel – after them. It’s not that his mind is jumping around temporally (because we’ve seen no evidence of that thus far), but that his body did, and his mind snapped from the process. It’s not that he’s in a time loop, but rather that we just saw everything out of order.

  • Chaddogg

    @shara says — that’s where I lose my train of thought/theory too. But perhaps its something simple related to simple science — two people cannot occupy the same space at the same time, etc. Thus, the fabric of space/time would be destroyed if, for example, Sawyer/Locke from the future saw themselves on the night Boone died, or if Locke saw himself in the future after he jumped off the island (maybe why he kills himself?) or if Faraday (jumping into the 1970s Tunisia) were to run into himself or his mother and have them know it was him.
    .
    So maybe future Faraday who jumps to 1970s Tunisia has to “kill” himself to negate the risk that he somehow ruins time’s continuum by meeting himself. But because there is a “soul” separate from our matter/minds, when he sees the 815 video, his “soul” realizes and reacts to his future path?
    .
    The idea of the soul being timeless (even while minds/bodies are not) would play pretty strongly in a show built around Man of Science/Man of Faith.

  • sunnysbud

    Last season, in the Orchid video, Dr. Candle Reference freaked when the bunny ended up in the same time as itself, remember? So it can’t be good to run into oneself. Locke seemed like he didn’t want to go near the hatch when they saw the light, either. Because he know past Locke was there?

  • chelsea15jk

    Quote, James, “(Who, incidentally, should get to fight with his bare hands in every episode.)” Totally agree. Way cool!

    When did we see this baby with candle? I’m confused. . .

    Hahaha at the time jump, Sawyer “Thank you Lord!” *pouring rain* “I take that back!”

    So only people that have been on the island a long time get nosebleeds?

  • Dave

    @chelsea – the baby people are talking about is the one from the beginning of the season 5 premiere. I think what Dan is saying about the nosebleeds is that the longer people are on the Island, the sooner they get nosebleeds (and eventually die, I presume).

  • chelsea15jk

    Oh I see. I missed that part because American Idol overlapped a bit. Thanks! I bet it’s Miles.

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