TV Tonight: Oh, You Know What's On TV Tonight

Jughead makes me think that the armed attackers were WWII/Korean War era British troops, though the episode title could be totally independent of any Archie reference. I think the troops are led by Widmore, who will then kill them off in order to take control of the Hostiles/Others (who did not have any guns before this event, hence the flaming arrows in the Great Redshirt Purge of Season 5).

Well, it seemed notable that the first thing that these guys did was threaten to de-hand Juliet, which seemed awfully rash and rather guantanamo, but it did make me recall the one-armed version of M. Candle as well as Danielle’s one-armed Montand. Clearly there is something about the Island that makes people maim first, ask questions later (see: Ethan). I guess smoke monsters who can take human form have that effect. I have to agree that the attackers are likely part of Widmore’s posse from the ‘first time’ he found the Island. They could be pre-Dharma — pacifying the Island so that the DI could settle in and build their quaint bungalows and bear cages. If so, this could be when Locke re-meets early-hostile Richard, presumed leader of the flaming arrow folk.

I still think that Chang’s arm and Jones the Ripper are two separate things. They’re in a different time, and we have evidence of Chang’s hand having problems before he’s seen with it useless or with prosthesis.

I’m more interested in the Ben/Desmond dynamic (should they meet tonight).
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I said last week that I thought Ms. Hawking was Daniel’s mother; when last we saw them, Ben was with Hawking and Desmond & Penny were headed that way (I theorize).
One tiny kink: In Season 4 Ben stated that he planned on killing Penny in revenge for Alex’s death.
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So should Ben still be there when Desmond arrives, who knows what’ll happen. As far as I remember, Desmond has never met Ben (he’s only met Juliet and the three Others who died in the Looking Glass, I think), but Ben should know who Desmond is – even if Hawking didn’t put him off limits, he still saw Desmond through the cameras in the Pearl. I don’t know if Penny knows who Ben is, but if she recognizes him then it suggests her intelligence gathering in the intervening years was pretty thorough.
In any case, it is likely Desmond could walk right into a messy situation – and might be forced into going back to the Island to keep Ben from killing Penny…
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As far as the uniformed invaders: Again, after the last time jump, we saw the drug plane back in the trees, so they are currently somewhen in the 1990s. But that is no guarantee that their assailants are from then – as others point out, their equipment seems to be from decades before then. That they would immediately start chopping off hands – off people of European descent, no less – makes me think that they are more mercenaries than any western nation’s standing army. Widmore sending in an earlier mercenary force? Dharma claiming the Island the first time (yeah, they were near-pacifists by the time they died – but don’t assume that was always the case)? Or are the two one and the same?

Does Ben even know that Desmond got off the island? I assume he knows about the relationship between Desmond and Penny (Ben knows everything, duh), but if all he knows about the people who made it off-island comes from the media storm about the Oceanic 6 (plus Walt), then Desmond might be a surprise, unless Ms. Hawking knows (she seems to know more).

How will they meet?? Ben is in L.A. and Desmond is going to Oxford.

@Tom – we did not see the drug plane in the trees in the Jones the Ripper time jump. That was in the last time we saw Locke in Because You Left, which ended with Daniel flashing as he’s talking to Desmond(“go find my mother, her name is…”*flash*). We didn’t see John at all in The Lie until he came out of the bushes and bailed out Sawyer and Juliet.

I’m assuming Ben knows that Desmond got off, because Sayid was working for him for a time (aside from him being Ben and having tons and tons of connections).
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One question that I’m eager to learn the answer to is this: how does Richard get off the Island in the past? I think there’s more to our Hostiles than meets the eye (understatement of the century).

Are we certain that the Others and the Hostiles are the same people?

Also: could Sun be secretly working with Ben to get Widmore? Ben’s trying to get all of the O6 back to the island… so Sun conveniently happens to be in LA (and calls Kate to say hi!)immediately after the lawyers come to Kate’s house asking for dna samples? And then makes her feel guilty about leaving the island? Both of these events in combination are giving Kate a pretty compelling argument to go back to the island. Maybe Sun sent the lawyers. She doesn’t actually know that Ben’s action on island caused the freighter explosion, as she was already in the helicopter… so she might not actually blame him (Ben) for Jin’s death. Just a thought.

@sunnysbud – I think the reason we use both terms is because it’s kind of ambiguous. “The Others” implies more of a current-era roster of folks living on the Island. Ben as leader, with scientists he’s recruited. “Hostiles” implies a more past-tense group (DI and earlier, perhaps?) and, to me, involves Richard as a more central leader figure. I’m pretty sure Tom Shaw was the first to use the term on this board of Ben’s scientists and Richard’s warriors. Is it possible that the only holdover from the DI-era Hostiles is Richard? Absolutely, until we start seeing a focus put on red shirt Others/Hostiles.

@sunnysbud – that’s exactly what I was thinking last week – we went back and forth on that in the discussion last week – I have entitled this the Sun is a Spooky Ninja Theory. That is what I’m going with until evidence shows otherwise, because it fits with all the evidence as well as the mood and motivations we’ve seen.

@sunnysbud – here’s what was posted last week (see http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2009/01/21/lost-watch-you-cant-make-a-record-if-you-cant-make-a-record-if-you-cant/?apage=2#comments for related comments):
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OK, so I’m rewatching The Lie, and back to wondering about Sun – particularly wondering about the scene with Kate and Sun where Kate asks Sun why she’s in LA and she says “I have some [small deliberate pause] business to attend to”. So what would have been in LA for her to do (that would have necessitated a suspicious pause before she said that)? Who do we know that is in LA at that same time, with whom she conceivably be having a secret meeting?
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Ben.
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My money is on Ben coming to Sun and informing her that Jin is alive on the island, and that the island is under threat from Widmore, and enlisting her help in getting everyone back to the island and getting close to Widmore – I’m always suspicious when any character on this show tries to manipulate another person to do something by telling him/her exactly what they most want to hear (like I was saying about Ben and Ms. Hawking above), and Sun telling Widmore that she wants to help him kill Ben would be exactly what Widmore wants to hear. She gets him to bite, she gets inside information – I’d bet she’s the kind of lady who would keep her enemies closer, and knowing that she had to protect Jin would give her the grim determination that she has shown off-island.
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And, Sun’s warning to Kate that “they want Aaron” and she needs to “take care of” Aaron just sounded like she was manipulating Kate for a particular focus – both distracting her from the possibility of her being spooked by the Back to the Island team (which should have been obvious to two smart ladies used to these ruses, who had just heard Bentham’s entreaties that they must return), and hitting on her worst fear – that someone was trying to hurt or take Aaron – making Kate more likely to view a return trip to the island as a necessary means of safe escape, rather than, like, the worst thing ever.
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Yup. Sun is in league with Ben and double-agenting Widmore. I’m calling this the Sun Is A Spooky Ninja Theory.

I didn’t get in on much Sun is a Spooky Ninja Theory action last week… I still can’t really get behind anything Sun or Kate do. Judging by how gracious Sun was to Kate about leaving Jin behind, I’m curious if she’d be equally gracious to Jack. I had just assumed that Jack was the second person responsible for Jin’s death in her mind, but maybe she does know about Ben. That or she knows Widmore was behind the freighter and blames him. *shrug*

Why would Sun believe Ben? She clearly knows that Widmore is behind the freighter, but she also knows that Ben and Widmore are at ‘war,’ so in her mind they could both equally share the blame. Who does she think caused the boat to explode? I realized thinking about it that Sayid watched Richard shoot Keamy yet he didn’t really react, even though given that he knew about the failsafe he should have expected the freighter to go boom at that moment. She could be just as pissed at Locke for all we know.

@shara – I’ll just be over here reinventing the wheel, then. I do think the SIASNT is a really good possibility, and makes the most sense to me, for all the reasons you mention. For what that’s worth with this show.
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Why does anyone believe Ben?? Yet they do, time and time again. Why wouldn’t she blame Widmore for the freigher explosion? And in one sense, she’d be right… he’s the one that hired a total sociopath nutjob (Keamy)to hit the island wearing a failsafe that would blow up the freighter.

@sunnysbud – the reason we continue to believe Ben is that, after season 4 ended, we discovered that he was telling the truth (or at least mostly telling the truth) for the better part of Through the Looking Glass and all of season 4. He still said things that raised suspicion in flash-forwards, but for the most part, everything he said in the past and present was proven true. Does that mean that we should blindly take him at his word? Absolutely not. But does it mean that we need to reinstate the rule of Never Trust Benjamin Linus? Also absolutely not.

I think I have to go with the simpler theory re: Sun, Occam’s Razor and so forth. Ben is the second person Sun blames for Jin’s “death”. We know Locke went and visited each of the O6 at some point after they got back. Locke was there when Ben killed Keamy and knew that Ben did it without regard for anyone on the freighter. Locke told Sun this, which is why Sun blames Ben directly for Jin’s death.
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That meshes cleanly with the theory that Ben is using the 06 to get back, and that he need not go back to fix the Island’s “jumping through time problem.” Locke tells the 06 they need to go back – but doesn’t include Ben in that (b/c Ben is banned from the Island).
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Locke could even be acting purposely to prevent Ben from coming back by convincing Sun to go after Ben. Maybe Ben coming back will cause even bigger problems, and Locke knows this.

Just to follow up…
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I guess I don’t see the point of Ben teaming up w/ Sun to go after Widmore. What would be the purpose? Ben’s already proven he can get to Widmore himself, as we saw in “The Shape of Things to Come.” I guess he could be trying to use Sun to get to Widmore in order to find out where Penny is, but it seems pretty clear that Desmond & Penny are on the run from Widmore and he has no idea where they are. I can’t think of any other reason (which, of course, isn’t to say a reason doesn’t exist).
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@shara- I mentioned this last week, but Sun didn’t say “take care of him” referring to Aaron. He said, “take care of them” – the people going after Aaron. Kate then took offense, asking “What kind of person do you think I am?” At least according to lostpedia’s transcript: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lie_transcript

@Dave: I had to look again, and you’re right: There was another jump after the “last” one I claimed, which means we have no idea when they are – although the 50s seems likely with their uniformed opponents.
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I don’t know how the compass fits in yet: Has the Richard of this time period already given young Locke his test, meaning this has to be 1960+? (Which would fit in with this being Dharma’s takeover force.) But if that is the case, Richard had to know Locke’s details before now, meaning the gang will be traveling further back in time still. (Note that Richard said the earlier him won’t “recognize” Locke, not that he has never “met” him).
Alternatively, Locke & Richard have never met, and this is therefore before 1956 (and Locke’s birth). This could work as well – Richard was off Island because the uniformees were successful in pushing most of the Hostiles off, and they rebuilt their insurgency throughout the 70s.
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One sidenote I just realized: The Wheel is blocked by a wall by the 1970s. How long has this been the case? If its been blocked for centuries, doesn’t that preclude Locke from using The Wheel himself, meaning he has indeed lived as Bentham in the outside world for possibly decades?

BTW, HAPPY LOST DAY!!!
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@sunnysbud: I like the way you think! We shall see! I’m so excited about tonite.
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@antilles: I watched that scene four times and still thought she was saying “take care of him” – what would “take care of them” even mean – kill the lawyers? More would surely follow, that wouldn’t even make sense. She doesn’t know for sure who is behind the lawyers, so she can’t go kill whoever that is. But I definitely could be hearing/assuming wrong. SIASN is the theory that makes the most sense to me at this point, but who knows. I can’t wait to see tonite’s episode. I’ve had a totally wretched day at work and looking forward to Lost has totally gotten me through a power outage, an email server-thing crash, and a huge deadline. Yippee!

@shara – sounds like your day was similar to mine. My wife tells me the power has been going on and off at our house all day, so at this point I’m just hoping to have power from 9-10 tonight!
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That Sun/Kate conversation doesn’t make sense to me for the same reasons you just mentioned. What does “taking care of” the lawyers solve? That’s the way I heard it, and the transcript seems to back that up. Of course, as Dave pointed out in last week’s thread, I completely missed the part where Sawyer said to meet at the creek, so apparently my hearing isn’t as good as it used to be.

@Tom – it’s sneaky, because it happens right at the end of the episode, then we jump right to Desmond, so we forget about the jump right away.
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I forget if it was here or on another site, but I grinned when I saw speculation on the compass being a paradox. Richard gives it to Locke, Locke gives it to Richard, Richard holds onto it for 50 years, and gives it back to Locke. I don’t think that’d actually happen, but it does make me smile.
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That does lead to the interesting question that you raise about whether Locke is giving Richard the same compass Richard tests young Locke with. I’ve got some speculation, but my brain is done working for today, so I’ll just tell you guys if I was right :-p

@antilles – OK, I just rewatched the scene again and agree that it could be “take care of them” – which doesn’t change my basic take on Sun’s actions but does add a layer of confusion.

@shara – great minds, and all that.
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@Dave – upthread a bit, I didn’t think Sun was being gracious with Kate about Jin’s death AT ALL. I detected a fair amount of manipulative bitchery happening there. SIASN!! Can’t wait to see what happens tonight.

That was a weird scene, it’s almost like Sun was testing to see how far Kate would go to preserve the lie. I guess it makes the most sense that she’d be on Ben’s “side” but I think she has a deeper motive. Jin was on Flight 815 in the first place because Mr. Paik asked him to deliver two Rolex watches to business associates in Sydney and LA. He delivered the first but crashed with the second (last we saw, Michael pawned it in New York…also, that wrist watch? Time…traveling.) Anyways I think both these associates could turn out to be major players in the Lost game. And now that Sun owns a controlling interest in Paik Heavy Industries, she might be privy to some of her father’s past (dramatic pause) “business associates.”

I just wanted to point out my one prediction for LOST, the only one I’ve ever made, and I’m sure other people have made this conclusion already but I just wanted to but my idea out there in print before I’m proved true:

The whispers have GOT to be the survivors who are now fluxing back and forth through time.

Of course, my wife has pointed out that if this is true, it’s very convenient that they only seem to flux/whisper through tense moments.

But oh well, that’s my prediction.

Maybe it’s the Hostiles, like when The Others were in charge and they were all afraid of them and had those drills when Ben was a kid.

This would be a lot of fun to liveblog/comment.